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    Genjutsu Needs a Buff

    Andariel Bloodworth
    Andariel Bloodworth
    Genin

    Posts : 368
    Join date : 2017-09-25

    Character File
    Skills & Elements: Bukijutsu | Chemistry | Genjutsu
    Class: B
    Ryo: 0

    Genjutsu Needs a Buff Empty Genjutsu Needs a Buff

    Post by Andariel Bloodworth Fri Nov 15, 2019 3:26 am

    Genjutsu is the one skill everybody fears, but very few actually practice. And the narrow margin of people who actually practice Genjutsu know that the current system is garbage. For those of you who haven't peeked at the Genjutsu system or who like Genjutsu but don't know how Genjutsu works currently on Gladius, let me give you the rundown:


    Genjutsu currently requires a certain amount of posts it needs to be kept active before it can actually cause its desired effect to the victim. Here is an example of a pretty standard C-rank Genjutsu below:


    Name: Demonic Illusion: Descending Hell Technique
    Rank: C
    Activation Cost: 5
    Range: 0 - 20 m.
    Speed: N/A
    Element: N/A
    Skill: Genjutsu
    Classification: Open
    Requirements: N/A
    Parent Technique: N/A
    Hand Seals: Boar → Dog → Bird → Monkey → Ram
    Description: This technique is triggered by the target observes the user's hand signs. Once triggered, this technique causes the illusion of a tremendous ball of fire falling from the sky into a designated area. The targets involved in the illusion literally feel the ball's hot temperature getting closer and despite all efforts, cannot outrun or evade the attack as it crashes into the ground catching them in the flames.

    This technique takes two posts to set in and deals C-rank psychological damage.

    Weaknesses: N/A

    As it states in its description, the technique requires two full rounds to pass by before the user is rewarded with a payload of psychological damage to the target.

    This is unlike Ninjutsu, where once the technique is cast it has the tenacity to cause damage in the same round. It may even be a rank stronger, or two if collaborated with the right element. But Ninjutsu aside, this is what Genjutsu looks like in its current state:

    1.) You perform hand signs like you would any other technique
    2.) You need to pray that your opponent foolishly looks at your hand signs (and doesn't totally metagame)
    3.) If you are lucky and your opponent plays along, you must maintain your technique for two rounds which winds up costing you an upkeep
    4.) Assuming you weren't interrupted in that duration, your opponent takes some light mental damage.


    To me this seems like a large waste of time and a retarded alternative to Ninjutsu. It's an impractical skill. Its value only shines through KKG, but the canon ability is just a joke. There are a variety of ways we can tackle Genjutsu which primarily focus on the major flaws previously mentioned and buffing them to where the skill can be practical in a serious fight. The options are:

    A.) Become a tad bit more liberal with triggers, make Intel identification a static system, and overall give Genjutsu a single post to set in.

    Becoming a bit more liberal with the triggers is helpful to prevent the super obvious metagame characters go through to avoid Genjutsu. It'll help the Genjutsu game overall become viable as a primary fighting skill versus a fancy toy to use every once and a while.

    I think with Plan A removing the whole "post system" for Genjutsu will be a great for business. I feel Genjutsu should work as I stated above. You land your Genjutsu, you opponent has one post to negotiate it and if they don't, they face whatever effects follow. This obviously doesn't include specific Genjutsu that can be utilized with an upkeep for sustained torment or a sustained illusion. There will be case-by-case Genjutsu as there are Ninjutsu. But the general principle is there should only be one round for a victim or their allies to remove the Genjutsu because the damage is done.

    This goes hand in hand with the Intel identification system. I feel Intelligence should be one of the main ways to negotiate with Genjutsu, and because of that it should just be a static system of "If the victim's Intelligence is one tier below the user's, the victim can recognize they're in a Genjutsu."

    B.) My second plan is to go with the exact same thing as Plan A, however the Intel identification system would be tweaked just slightly. This is primarily because I don't want an entire skill to be based on Stat vs. Stat comparison, when technique plays a huge role. Plan B would involve the same Intel Identification system, however instead of being static for simplicity, the rank of the Genjutsu determines how difficult it is to break. So for a quick any dirty:

    D-rank Gen: Can be recognized if the victim has 3 tiers of Intel below the user
    C-rank Gen: Can be recognized if the victim has 2 tiers of Intel below the user
    B/A-rank Gen: Can be recognized if the victim has 1 tier of Intel below the user
    S-rank Gen: Can be recognized if the victim has equal Intel of the user

    This version still rewards Genjutsu users for investing in Intelligence and still encourages them to use powerful technique not only to yield a power effect, but to overcome opponents with closer Intelligence to their own.



    I would like to hear others input on Genjutsu, because I feel it is a skill worth fixing.


    _________________
    Strength: C++
    Constitution: C (B w/Living Exp and Oni)
    Stamina: B
    Speed: C
    Coordination: C
    Intelligence: B
    Perception: B
    Naito
    Naito

    Posts : 34
    Join date : 2017-09-19

    Character File
    Skills & Elements: Ninjutsu, Kenjutsu, Weapon Smith, Wind Release
    Class: D
    Ryo: 0

    Genjutsu Needs a Buff Empty Re: Genjutsu Needs a Buff

    Post by Naito Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:18 am

    I'mma keep my thoughts succinct.

    1) I agree with Genjutsu not requiring multiple turns. But a Genjutsu should take up the entirety of a person's actions, save for reacting to a person's post, in the PRESENT turn that you're casting it. It takes time and focus to apply Genjutsu. You can't exactly sprinting around and be casting people in Genjutsu at the same time. It takes a lot of focus and attention. While the Genjutsu is playing out in the person's senses/head you don't have to continue to focus on it, and can remain with your normally scheduled activities.

    2) Rank needs to determine effect of Genjutsu, and Intelligence determines effectiveness of Genjutsu. Even a simple Genjutsu can destroy an opponent if applied by someone who's smarter than you are (see Danzo vs. Sasuke). I'd also limit accessible Genjutsu ranks by Intelligence Tiers to prevent power creeping. Genjutsu is insanely strong in canon, so should require extra investment (Sharingan Genjutsu is of course an exception because it's innate with the mastery of the Sharingan). Of course if people disagree with me I understand why.

    3) Triggers need to be redone. From my research False Surroundings is simply a phantasm. You pour chakra into your environment rather than people's brains to make the terrain assume the shape you want people to see. This negates the need for a Intelligence vs. Intelligence for launching but rather Intelligence vs. Intelligence for noticing that your terrain doesn't match up. So Genjutsu needs to be split up into "Control" Genjutsu which is the standard trigger-induced concotion and "Phantasm" Genjutsu which is "solid" illusion manifested into the material plane. The word solid meaning stable in this case rather than like hard/solid phase of matter.

    4) Control Genjutsu should only inflict stuns for post durations, rather than knocking someone out for the rest of the topic. Even Sasuke's Mangekyou Sharingan only affected C at the Summit for a few minutes, as he was not that long after able to get up (see when he healed the Raikage's arm). Genjutsu is about creating openings in combat or disabling weaker foes. It should not be strictly "save or gtfo". Rather it should scale based off the SEVERITY of difference in Intelligence. If you're equal in Intelligence then you're able to easily dispel it and continue your turn as normal. If you're a tier below maybe make it so that it takes them the whole turn to figure it out and they dispel the Genjutsu by the end of the post? It's close enough that they shouldn't necessarily be completely screwed. Two tiers is when you're "caught" by the Genjutsu and unable to get out of it until the duration lasts.

    Of course I'm just spitballing.

    But those are my suggestions.


    _________________
    Stats/Skills:
    Strength: D
    Constitution: D
    Stamina: D (50 CP)
    Speed: C
    Coordination: D (+1 Tier UA)
    Intelligence: D
    Perception: C

    Kenjutsu, Wind Release, Crafting, Ninjutsu


    color=#9900ff
    Andariel Bloodworth
    Andariel Bloodworth
    Genin

    Posts : 368
    Join date : 2017-09-25

    Character File
    Skills & Elements: Bukijutsu | Chemistry | Genjutsu
    Class: B
    Ryo: 0

    Genjutsu Needs a Buff Empty Re: Genjutsu Needs a Buff

    Post by Andariel Bloodworth Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:42 am

    @Naito wrote:
    1) I agree with Genjutsu not requiring multiple turns. But a Genjutsu should take up the entirety of a person's actions, save for reacting to a person's post, in the PRESENT turn that you're casting it. It takes time and focus to apply Genjutsu. You can't exactly sprinting around and be casting people in Genjutsu at the same time. It takes a lot of focus and attention. While the Genjutsu is playing out in the person's senses/head you don't have to continue to focus on it, and can remain with your normally scheduled activities.

    I think this is already applicable in our current system.


    2) Rank needs to determine effect of Genjutsu, and Intelligence determines effectiveness of Genjutsu. Even a simple Genjutsu can destroy an opponent if applied by someone who's smarter than you are (see Danzo vs. Sasuke). I'd also limit accessible Genjutsu ranks by Intelligence Tiers to prevent power creeping. Genjutsu is insanely strong in canon, so should require extra investment (Sharingan Genjutsu is of course an exception because it's innate with the mastery of the Sharingan). Of course if people disagree with me I understand why.

    Limiting Genjutsu by Intelligence seems a bit too much and nerfs the skill, which is the opposite in what I am trying to achieve.


    3) Triggers need to be redone. From my research False Surroundings is simply a phantasm. You pour chakra into your environment rather than people's brains to make the terrain assume the shape you want people to see. This negates the need for a Intelligence vs. Intelligence for launching but rather Intelligence vs. Intelligence for noticing that your terrain doesn't match up. So Genjutsu needs to be split up into "Control" Genjutsu which is the standard trigger-induced concotion and "Phantasm" Genjutsu which is "solid" illusion manifested into the material plane. The word solid meaning stable in this case rather than like hard/solid phase of matter.

    In our Genjutsu rules we have Subtle Triggers and General Triggers. Subtle Triggers are your very specific triggers, like eye contact or looking at a specific body part. You General Triggers are the AoE environmental triggers like Temple of Nirvana or False Surroundings.

    We also define Phantasm and Control Genjutsu as Perceptional and Nightmare Genjutsu, respectively. The Perceptional Genjutsu are broken with Perception instead of Intelligence, as those Genjutsu generally take you to first notice the detail of something being off to know something's wrong. Nightmare Genjutsu on the other hand is similar to a bad dream, or an actual Nightmare. Your character will obviously know they're in the Genjutsu. But like a Nightmare, you may not have control of yourself. The victim's Intelligence in this sense is their mental willpower and their ability to "lucid dream" their way into forming Kai to release the Genjutsu.


    4) Control Genjutsu should only inflict stuns for post durations, rather than knocking someone out for the rest of the topic. Even Sasuke's Mangekyou Sharingan only affected C at the Summit for a few minutes, as he was not that long after able to get up (see when he healed the Raikage's arm). Genjutsu is about creating openings in combat or disabling weaker foes. It should not be strictly "save or gtfo". Rather it should scale based off the SEVERITY of difference in Intelligence. If you're equal in Intelligence then you're able to easily dispel it and continue your turn as normal. If you're a tier below maybe make it so that it takes them the whole turn to figure it out and they dispel the Genjutsu by the end of the post? It's close enough that they shouldn't necessarily be completely screwed. Two tiers is when you're "caught" by the Genjutsu and unable to get out of it until the duration lasts.

    "Control" or Nightmare Genjutsu on Gladius currently allows Psychological Damage or Stat Debuffs, the latter which can very well represent the "stun" you may be referring to. As for C you can assume he suffered Psychological Damage and was too mentally exhausted to continue fighting, since Darui had to carry him around for the rest of that scene.

    Psychological Damage works very much like Physical Damage. Your Intelligence is the Constitution regarding Psychological Damage. So having D-tier Intelligence against a B-rank Genjutsu will very much put the victim on the verge of unconsciousness.


    _________________
    Strength: C++
    Constitution: C (B w/Living Exp and Oni)
    Stamina: B
    Speed: C
    Coordination: C
    Intelligence: B
    Perception: B
    Naito
    Naito

    Posts : 34
    Join date : 2017-09-19

    Character File
    Skills & Elements: Ninjutsu, Kenjutsu, Weapon Smith, Wind Release
    Class: D
    Ryo: 0

    Genjutsu Needs a Buff Empty Re: Genjutsu Needs a Buff

    Post by Naito Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:50 am

    @Andariel Bloodworth wrote:
    @Naito wrote:
    1) I agree with Genjutsu not requiring multiple turns. But a Genjutsu should take up the entirety of a person's actions, save for reacting to a person's post, in the PRESENT turn that you're casting it. It takes time and focus to apply Genjutsu. You can't exactly sprinting around and be casting people in Genjutsu at the same time. It takes a lot of focus and attention. While the Genjutsu is playing out in the person's senses/head you don't have to continue to focus on it, and can remain with your normally scheduled activities.

    I think this is already applicable in our current system.


    2) Rank needs to determine effect of Genjutsu, and Intelligence determines effectiveness of Genjutsu. Even a simple Genjutsu can destroy an opponent if applied by someone who's smarter than you are (see Danzo vs. Sasuke). I'd also limit accessible Genjutsu ranks by Intelligence Tiers to prevent power creeping. Genjutsu is insanely strong in canon, so should require extra investment (Sharingan Genjutsu is of course an exception because it's innate with the mastery of the Sharingan). Of course if people disagree with me I understand why.

    Limiting Genjutsu by Intelligence seems a bit too much and nerfs the skill, which is the opposite in what I am trying to achieve.


    3) Triggers need to be redone. From my research False Surroundings is simply a phantasm. You pour chakra into your environment rather than people's brains to make the terrain assume the shape you want people to see. This negates the need for a Intelligence vs. Intelligence for launching but rather Intelligence vs. Intelligence for noticing that your terrain doesn't match up. So Genjutsu needs to be split up into "Control" Genjutsu which is the standard trigger-induced concotion and "Phantasm" Genjutsu which is "solid" illusion manifested into the material plane. The word solid meaning stable in this case rather than like hard/solid phase of matter.

    In our Genjutsu rules we have Subtle Triggers and General Triggers. Subtle Triggers are your very specific triggers, like eye contact or looking at a specific body part. You General Triggers are the AoE environmental triggers like Temple of Nirvana or False Surroundings.

    We also define Phantasm and Control Genjutsu as Perceptional and Nightmare Genjutsu, respectively. The Perceptional Genjutsu are broken with Perception instead of Intelligence, as those Genjutsu generally take you to first notice the detail of something being off to know something's wrong. Nightmare Genjutsu on the other hand is similar to a bad dream, or an actual Nightmare. Your character will obviously know they're in the Genjutsu. But like a Nightmare, you may not have control of yourself. The victim's Intelligence in this sense is their mental willpower and their ability to "lucid dream" their way into forming Kai to release the Genjutsu.


    4) Control Genjutsu should only inflict stuns for post durations, rather than knocking someone out for the rest of the topic. Even Sasuke's Mangekyou Sharingan only affected C at the Summit for a few minutes, as he was not that long after able to get up (see when he healed the Raikage's arm). Genjutsu is about creating openings in combat or disabling weaker foes. It should not be strictly "save or gtfo". Rather it should scale based off the SEVERITY of difference in Intelligence. If you're equal in Intelligence then you're able to easily dispel it and continue your turn as normal. If you're a tier below maybe make it so that it takes them the whole turn to figure it out and they dispel the Genjutsu by the end of the post? It's close enough that they shouldn't necessarily be completely screwed. Two tiers is when you're "caught" by the Genjutsu and unable to get out of it until the duration lasts.

    "Control" or Nightmare Genjutsu on Gladius currently allows Psychological Damage or Stat Debuffs, the latter which can very well represent the "stun" you may be referring to. As for C you can assume he suffered Psychological Damage and was too mentally exhausted to continue fighting, since Darui had to carry him around for the rest of that scene.

    Psychological Damage works very much like Physical Damage. Your Intelligence is the Constitution regarding Psychological Damage. So having D-tier Intelligence against a B-rank Genjutsu will very much put the victim on the verge of unconsciousness.

    Hmm that's pretty interesting actually. I disagree with some mechanics of that system (and it clearly means it's been heavily revised from when I wrote it), but I think it's an interesting system nonetheless.

    Then yeah I'd just say I +1 making Genjutsu take multiple posts and maybe expand on that Intelligence/Perception Identification system. I think your Plan B makes a lot of sense.



    _________________
    Stats/Skills:
    Strength: D
    Constitution: D
    Stamina: D (50 CP)
    Speed: C
    Coordination: D (+1 Tier UA)
    Intelligence: D
    Perception: C

    Kenjutsu, Wind Release, Crafting, Ninjutsu


    color=#9900ff
    Irui Mikiri
    Irui Mikiri

    Village : Kumogakure
    Posts : 296
    Join date : 2019-04-24

    Character File
    Skills & Elements: Lightning Release, Dark Release, Nin, Gen, Summ., Sensor
    Class: D
    Ryo: 0

    Genjutsu Needs a Buff Empty Re: Genjutsu Needs a Buff

    Post by Irui Mikiri Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:51 am

    Is this still up for discussion?


    _________________
    Info:

    Character Name: Irui Mikiri
    Spendable Experience: 1915
    Total Experience: 4035 / 6500 (A to S class)
    Ryo: 50,000
    Current Stats:
    Strength: D
    Constitution: B (+2 (w/ JI) | S
    Stamina: C (+2 (w/ JI) | A
    Speed: B (++ w/JI) | B++
    Coordination: B
    Intelligence: B
    Perception: B

    Jashinist Immortality

    Link to Character Updates & Techniques: Link
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      Current date/time is Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:09 pm