Toads, Snakes and Slugs, oh my!

As the title of this thread does not suggest, this is going to be putting forth a few problems with the current system of Sage Mode. While Slugs, Toads and Snakes are the biggest Summoning Clans in the series, and the only ones we know of with homes, because two of them grant Sage Mode through their Elder's teachings, it can be assumed that all Summoning Contracts can do the same. What I am trying to say that restricting Sage Mode, pure and powerful, to a select three chosen with amazing luck and then giving those who come after the dregs in the form of Imperfect and Non-Use, a bit of a change in the system:

All Summoning Contracts are capable of having their own Sage Mode, though whether one is capable of learning this Sage Mode will be determined by a roll (Much like the success of Curse Mark Application). Variables can be put in place to increase the chance of success, such as lower ranks (D and C) requiring a 100 Dice Roll with a roll of say 1, 25, 50, 75 or 100 to be successful, while mid ranks (B and A) require a 10 Dice Roll with a 1, 5 or 10 to be successful, and finally the highest ranks (S to X) require a 5 Dice Roll with a 1, 3 or 5 to be successful.

There could also be other prerequisites after one succeeds their roll in order to learn Sage Mode. For example a training topic with their Contract's Elder that needs to be a certain number of posts to learn Imperfect Sage Mode and another topic with the Elder to learn Perfect Sage Mode.

When people make their Sage Modes, they can determine the boosts (following whatever limits were placed on the Toad, Slug and Snake Sage Modes) and the person is also capable of forming their Contract's own Kata, again following whatever limits were placed upon the Toad, Slug and Snake Kata.

I brought this idea forth because I understand the need to keep somethings within a small circle especially when many people have their eyes on it and it can be a wealth of power, having been a mod several times before myself, but I also felt as though the current system for Sage Mode is too restricting.

One a completely unrelated note: There should be a system in place that allows the gaining of more character slots. Because I know that I love drowning myself under the mountain of work that is juggling multiple characters. And I say that with absolutely no sarcasm. Having tons of characters is great.

I agree up until the possibility of choosing boosts. There's the likelihood of people just going for boosts that're illogical to an animal they like. That should be up to the staff to prevent that.

There were plenty of summoning contracts in canon that didn't show any kind of sage ability. We restricted Sage Mode to those three so that everyone didn't just choose summoning to get free sage mode. It's a restricted ability for a reason, letting everyone and their brother have a shot at it defeats the purpose of the restriction. Not everyone is supposed to be a sage.

Copycat wrote:I agree up until the possibility of choosing boosts. There's the likelihood of people just going for boosts that're illogical to an animal they like. That should be up to the staff to prevent that.

I was trying to put some of the responsibility on the person who wants the Contract and Sage Mode. If they want a certain boost, they pick a Contract that fits said boost. Then the staff can check whatever boosts they pick to make sure it fits.

Tsuyo wrote:There were plenty of summoning contracts in canon that didn't show any kind of sage ability. We restricted Sage Mode to those three so that everyone didn't just choose summoning to get free sage mode. It's a restricted ability for a reason, letting everyone and their brother have a shot at it defeats the purpose of the restriction. Not everyone is supposed to be a sage.

That's the point. We only saw as much of the Toad, Snake and Slug contracts as we did because they were a tool of the main characters or important to the plot. We didn't even see the proof of the Slugs possessing a sage mode, so if you can give liberties for that you can allow someone who picks up Sage Mode as a restricted skill to pick the contract they want it for. And what I suggested isn't giving everyone Sage Mode. The roll determines who is capable of gaining it. You can make it even harder to obtain by lessening the numbers. Leave it up to chance. It is a good system that gives everyone space to try for Sage Mode, while also ensuring that everyone won't get it.

Having to do a couple topics of training isn't exactly an impediment to learning something. And a diceroll still gives people the opportunity to just get a restricted technique simply due to possessing a certain skill. It'd be like doing a diceroll for gates because you happen to be in Konoha, or a diceroll for Lightning Release Armor because you happen to possess ninjutsu and raiton. Now if you get Sage Mode via event or whatnot, we can talk about putting into a different animal contract. But allowing everyone with kuchiyose even the chance to get Sage Mode by virtue of just possessing the skill rather than doing well In Character and earning it is a solid no-go.

Tsuyo wrote:Having to do a couple topics of training isn't exactly an impediment to learning something. And a diceroll still gives people the opportunity to just get a restricted technique simply due to possessing a certain skill. It'd be like doing a diceroll for gates because you happen to be in Konoha, or a diceroll for Lightning Release Armor because you happen to possess ninjutsu and raiton. Now if you get Sage Mode via event or whatnot, we can talk about putting into a different animal contract. But allowing everyone with kuchiyose even the chance to get Sage Mode by virtue of just possessing the skill rather than doing well In Character and earning it is a solid no-go.

My main problem with the Sage Mode was that it was restricted to the three Contracts. I am pretty sure people will accpet, whatever requirements for achieving it, so long as they can gain Sage Mode with a Contract outside of those three.

The main issue with opening Sage Mode up like that is how much we would have to water it down to justify it being available to everyone. It would be looked at as a boost to Summoning and what we want to avoid is making that one Skill the best in the game. Keeping Sage Mode restricted allows it to remain as powerful as it is.

What would be more likely is introducing an event where a person can get the restricted Sage Mode, and if they do, they could opt to use it for a contract other than the main three, provided they also choose not to gain one of those three restricted contracts.

Concordantly, I would prefer to keep Snakes restricted. It tends to be one of the most popular summons in the series irrespective of Sage mode. We dont want everyone signing for it and we dont want only one person registering it and having sole access to it. We would prefee releasing it through an event so a greater number of people have a shot at the contract

basically turning everything in a lottery, bijuu, sagemode, contracts...

it more or less becomes a farce. I could understand the restriction of the sagemode, but restricting JUST those three contracts is BS, especially when your reasoning is because they have sage modes, may I remind you that slugs did NOT have a sagemode in canon and by that claim already should be excempt from the restriction.

Also, snakes actually aren't as popular as you think, certainly since you seperated the contracts from sagemode itself, there should be no immediate issue. On many sites crows,dogs, cats, lizards, salamanders are just as, if not more popular...are you going to restrict those to?

Characters that are geared towards these things now can end up completely pointless if they're not lucky with these lotteries. Again putting some diceroll ahead of actually working and building up a story for something...

Sage Mode is something that we'd rather keep restricted so that it can remain as strong as it is. We can make Sage Mode a restricted on its own that isn't related to any contract, so that whoever gets it can apply it to their own specific custom contract, if they want. They could also just not associate with a contract.

Currently, a character that registers a contract has claim to the animal type in the contract, and in order to register that animal type, someone would need permission. We could remove this, and allow people to make any animal type desired, regardless of who has what. This would allow for people to make Snakes and Toads and Slugs of their own, without needing the restricted Contracts, which would then only apply to the Toads of Myoboku, the Snakes of Ryuchi, and the Slugs of Shikkotsu.

Those restricted contracts also contain a certain list of techniques on each of them that are granted once the contracts are. This lets things such as Living Corpse Reincarnation, 100 Healings Technique, and Toad Mouth Bind remain very powerful. We could separate those techniques from the contract,s, but that would mean some may get turned restricted, and all others would get watered down to properly balance them.

Staff is currently discussing these things, but we would like everyone's thoughts on the matters.

Have it be animal-free but restricted to three people. Make the eligiblity be based on being titled as a Sennin, so all three would be the Sannin [being named by your Kage or multiple ones as a Sennin]. Kuchiyose / A-Class or S-Class would be good prereqs or whatever. On the other hand I think Strength of a Hundred and Edo Tensei should be in their own right restricted techniques instead of connected to the contract; Tobirama created Edo Tensei and there was no indication that he had snake summons or even was a practitioner of Kuchiyose.

As for acquiring summons in general, maybe that could just be purchased via. EXP or something of the sort? And for the rarer ones such as the canon ones (Toad, Snake and Slug) they could be acquired as mission rewards/loot to promote doing missions, and by those means, interacting with people to complete said missions.

Just because something exists does not mean anybody has a right to it. If I gear my character to be heavily reliant on Lightning Release Armor, that doesn't mean I should just get it. Restricteds, including Sage Mode, will in almost all cases be given out during plot events and will be available to whoever can take them/ prove they deserve it. There's a reason these things are restricted; not everyone is going to have them, nor is everyone supposed to be able to get them. I'm fine with making a sage Mode for different contracts, but giving everybody who has Kuchiyose the chance to get Sage Mode defeats the point. Limiting it to Sannin is also kinda weird. Naruto wasn't a Sannin, Mitsuki wasn't a Sannin, Kabuto wasn't, etc. Sage Mode will be treated just like every other restricted technique because doing otherwise defeats the purpose of it and would require a weakening of Sage Mode so that it doesn't make any one build or skill too powerful.

Izumi wrote:We could remove this, and allow people to make any animal type desired, regardless of who has what. This would allow for people to make Snakes and Toads and Slugs of their own, without needing the restricted Contracts, which would then only apply to the Toads of Myoboku, the Snakes of Ryuchi, and the Slugs of Shikkotsu.

Those restricted contracts also contain a certain list of techniques on each of them that are granted once the contracts are. This lets things such as Living Corpse Reincarnation, 100 Healings Technique, and Toad Mouth Bind remain very powerful. We could separate those techniques from the contract,s, but that would mean some may get turned restricted, and all others would get watered down to properly balance them.

Just so people have a clear idea of what we are debating and discussing. That' is the proposal that is currently on the table. I for one think that's a decent compromise.

given out during plot events

That alone implies people participating in said events get it "handed" to them as you all seem to constantly imply as an argument towards me. All I wanted is to get it, I didn't say I wanted it for free or without any work. If said something like, you need to use a few irl months or an X post long thread with a staffmember before you get it... I was fine with that.

But you'd rather insult players saying they want something free, while at the same time contradicting that insult by actually giving them and funny enough other even more powerful restricted/exclusive stuff out for free through events and lotteries. I think this discussion leads nowhere with people who can't even see that they are being rude and obstinate for no good reason.

I do not disregard putting effort into something, what I do dislike is not putting up any rules or proper list on restrictions and when I finally have the required skill for it, you suddenly call what I want restricted: THAT is what made me pissed and not all the BS that came with it.

EDIT: sorry, posted this after Tsuyo yet again bashed at me with the "you want it for free" insult. Serious, I did my work to get kuchiyose, so calling it free is wrong from the start. Anyway, I expect staff to put up a proper list of restrictions anywhere in the coming weeks, because vagueness and lack of info in that department is helping no one and will only create frustrations along the way.

When we say given out during plots, what we mean is that a plot event will be introduced that will include a restricted in some way. By participating in the plot, you have some chance to acquire the restricted based on what you do. At no point will anyone just get a restricted simply for being there. An easy example is a bijuu, where one character may become a Jinchuuriki if the bijuu is sealed in them by themselves or the other characters; it's all based on the actions of the characters. Similarly, the Bijuu might be killed or it might kill everyone else and just leave. We never know how the events will end, nor who will get what, because we leave a lot of it up to the in character actions of participating players. The lottery was our only case of a hand out, and while something like it may happen again, it's a rare occurrence and by no means a standard.

There was oversight on the restricted list. It was finished prior to opening but we neglected to post it until a member asked several weeks later and we realised that we had forgotten it. We also didn't specify that the contracts were part of Sage Mode, so that's on us as well. Same with the techniques that are linked to the contract. In the case of those jutsu, however, we have a technique request thread for that reason. If you know you're going to want a canon jutsu, you need to post it in that thread so that you can figure out if it's being reserved for something and if not then get it registered. There are things, like Iaido, that aren't restricted, but are being withheld for a future release. There are also techniques that we haven't considered but, upon looking at, we may decide to add to the restricted list.

This topic is about the contracts and the techniques going forward, though, and we're still looking for more feedback.

Feedback: make the contracts more readily available. It was the Sage Mode about them that made them special, not the contract itself. Honestly, I don't think they are really a big deal, and of Sage Mode is given as Sage Mode, it could just be applied to a contract regardless of which it is. All of them would presumably have elders and such that are capable of teaching it.
Besides, the First hokage had Sage mode and wasn't even a summoner. It was just sage mode. So it technically can be achieved without a summons.

I think it's actually complicated regarding sage mode.

Technically you first have the contract and only then when you've been seen as worthy by your summons, they might invite you to train with them and if you're lucky, you might even obtain the power of a sage.

So rather than giving out the sagemode, it should be giving out the contract by that logic, no?

As for Hashirama...that guy did so many illogical (even by canon standards) things that he's kind of the one person you never use as an example xD

However, at some point, restricting contracts based on popularity might backlash as well. Who is to say lizards and crows, etc don't have popularity, but are now restricted to one person using them. There's also the fact that you more or less force snakes, toads and slugs to become popular because of the immense bonus they get, which in turn isn't so much popularity because of the animal they are, but solely with the prospect of being able to one-up everyone else. (just saying xD)

It would make more sense to let people actually work for the restricted things on site, rather than leaving it to chance with events and such. By example, if you make an event and some of the current kage join said event. What if they would have the luck of winning these prizes. You'd end up with a stagnant site, because it's not at all so easy to get to their level (which they just started with for good reason, can't have a site with only genin), but the danger of it happening with the current rules/system does exist and when a site ends up with some ridiculously overpowered characters that you can't catch up to no matter how much effort you put into it... you know what'd happen, right?

So maybe at least how you approach it would need to change, rather than having a chance with an event, give it to those who have put the most effort into it (the event) and let them have a choice from among a selection of restricted things. That way you avoid letting someone who hardly did anything ending up with stuff like senjutsu, etc and you also minimize the risk of unbalancing the current kages (who I believe are not supposed to remain kage forever, no?)

So to make this post a bit simpler:

1. the idea about restricted stuff being able through events is fine, but should be based on effort, not chance.
2. current kages due to the fact they started so high ranked without any effort should be excempt from such "chances" until you actually have people that can rival them.
3. Canonwise, all summons technically have the potential of granting sage mode at some point, not the way around. So technically you can restrict the three so-called popular contracts, but you actually can't just hand over sagemode WITH the contract: contract comes first, sagemode comes after lots of work.

It's not bashing to tell you that you can't have what you want for minimal effort which is what you were wanting. As to your bullet points:

1- The person who puts forth the most effort is typically the one who wins the event, and we've said before that you're going to have to work for and take what you want when the opportunity arises multiple times now. If person X seals a bijuu into person Y, then person Z should not get the bijuu and will not get the bijuu. This is still chance based though, because we have no idea who will put in the most effort for a given event until it happens.

2- The starting kage won't be doing much themselves during plot unless the village itself is attacked. Plots we come up with are for member enjoyment, not so we can feel good about ourselves by roflstomping a NPC.

3- Pretty sure there's only a few places to learn Sage Mode in canon if one doesn't just do it themselves which is something I highly doubt we'll allow. Lots of things get changed for balance within the game. See: Gates.

wasn't trying to again be a bitch, the bullet points were merely to confirm that that was the intent or not. You answered them, so I guess I've got no more questions or issues regarding the subject, thanks.