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    More Sensible Gates

    Akame
    Akame


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    Post by Akame Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:18 pm

    Just gonna keep it simple here, minus the new system down below. Gates boosts make no sense when the drawbacks and requirements are taken into account. One needs high Constitution to use the gates effectively since each tier of constitution one has grants two posts of use. However, Gates also boost Constitution and this boost DOES NOT count towards this post limit. That means that, if one were to invest somewhat heavily into higher constitution to use the gates for a decent period of time (B tier is what I consider to be an "investment" in any stat), say A tier, then their boost to Constitution that is gotten from the gates is rendered mostly null after a certain point and boosts are lost. When one has higher Constitution from that, say from a kekkei genkai giving a couple pluses or having natural S tier constitution, that boost is all but thrown away. If it counted towards the gate limit this would help a little bit. But when it doesn't count towards it and one is faced with the choice of having lower base Constitution to receive maximum benefits from their restricted or going for longer use but effectively losing up to 1/4 of the power of the restricted in doing so, it seems a little messed up really.

    This boost should go to Coordination rather than Constitution at least in part, as the gates have been shown to increase the speed of punches quite drastically. Might Guy lit the air on fire with the speed of his punches, and the speed of an attack on our site is determined by Coordination rather than Speed when it's something like a punch, kick, sword slash, etc. I have changed this with the proposed version, essentially moving most of the Constitution buff to Coordination and providing a special place for the Constitution buff that I feel makes the most sense. The amount of boosts given by the first Seven Gates with the new version is reduced by two pluses total, with the Eighth Gate making the total number boosts provided one plus higher than before. The result is still death. Don't worry, I didn't try and change that.

    The other thing that doesn't make much sense to me is the way drawbacks are implemented for the gates. As they currently function, somebody opening any gate for one post receives the same penalties as someone who used them for every single post they could. This is not how the gates functioned in canon in any way, shape, or form. The gates were shown to temporarily fatigue someone who used them in short bursts, at least among the lower gates, as Rock Lee demonstrated against Gaara. He used the first gate, shut it off and was slow for a bit but then was back to normal once his body had time to readjust. The permanent damage started after an extended use of the gates. Might Guy has on numerous occasions utilized the Sixth gate with seemingly very little ill effect on his health if he utilized it for a short burst. This is even true of the seventh gate, as his fight with Kisame was completed with the seventh gate and he was still not only able to stand, but go fight in the Fourth Shinobi World War where he used the gates even more, though not the Seventh Gate in particular until Madara I believe.

    My point with that is the gates drawbacks we have don't actually do that. It's "you use them for all of four seconds and you're instantly crippled when you shut them off". That doesn't seem right when there's already a hard cap to how many posts one can even use the gates which is also a flat amount across all levels of gates. That doesn't make much sense either, but it is warranted for balance reasons and I agree with that.

    I have made a different version of the Hachimon that I believe is truer to canon but is also still a balanced restricted technique. Before you say it, no this is not because I have Itaken now. I've disliked how gates have functioned since the site opened and was going to do this anyways. I noticed the low blow regarding Constitution once Itaken was created, but the drawbacks are what bug me the most and is what has received the most attention. Do note that I have proposed additional restrictions on who can actually use gates to set a bit of a minimum if one wants to use their full power. Most of the drawbacks are not highlighted because it is essentially a complete rework of the drawback system, though it is harsher is many areas when compared to the previous drawbacks.


    Aw jeez, I did it again. I said simple and then made a couple detailed paragraphs. Sorry guys, I'll probably do that every time anyways lol. But, I do truly feel like this version of gates represents the canon better and has a better balance to it than the black and white of the previous version.



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    Akari Chinoike
    Akari Chinoike


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    Post by Akari Chinoike Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:15 pm

    Necroing this, because frankly, this is solid stuff and I agree 100%, would anyone else be interested in commenting on it? Smile


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    Character Name: Madrigal Hyuga
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    Kurenai
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    Post by Kurenai Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:13 am

    On a global level, I can agree with this. It makes more sense, and Gates boosted varying aspects of the body. Not just strength and speed. It does bring me to a couple of other questions:

    - When speed and coordination are being boosted, one needs to consider perception too. Lee didn't have tunnel vision during its use. How will this feature be implemented once higher level of Gates are being used?

    - I'd tweak the CON investment a little bit. B-rank for full activation sounds a bit low. Access to two Gate-levels/tier above E-rank seems better. That'd mean the 7th and 8th Gate would require A-rank CON. An investment? Yes, but the power granted by this technique is nothing to scoff at. Burst or not, the 7Th gate still offers (Str: 2 Tiers++, Spd: 2 Tiers++, CoO: 2 Tiers, Sta: +80) according to its notes. One post is all you could be needing to end a fight with that sort of additional power.


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    Mal'Zeth Muramatsu
    Mal'Zeth Muramatsu


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    Post by Mal'Zeth Muramatsu Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:15 am

    (Shinsui again, different account)

    I respectfully disagree

    You still only have 4 durability points at B tier Con, which means if you activate anything higher than fourth gate you've already started your permanent damage timer and have begun to rack up the debuffs for it's deactivation. The gates were supposed to be a last resort if your body couldn't handle it and this write up emphasizes that quite nicely. Hell, even having the first or second gate open will only give you 2 posts of usage before you start stacking debuffs for a grand total of 6 posts.

    Putting A tier con as the requirement for all gates just bumps up their ability to activate those higher gates at the bare minimum. Hell, it's almost more of a buff at that point than not.

    A Tier con gives you 7 durability points going off this write up, that means you get at least 1 post with even the seventh gate before you have to deactivate it to avoid stacking the debuffs. Not only that, but it gives them 8 posts to maintain it after the point they wouldn't be able to avoid stacking.

    That's the bare minimum level of Con that would be required to open the higher gates based on your suggestion.

    Next, gates isn't supposed to be an 'end all be all' type of thing, it's supposed to be a powerful restricted. If one trains gates, but doesn't have the perception to keep up with themselves during it, that's their own fault for not building into it. It only takes A Tier perception to avoid tunnel vision at S++ speed if I remember correctly.


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    Stats:

    • Strength: D
    • Constitution: D
    • Stamina: C
    • Speed: D
    • Coordination: D
    • Intelligence: B
    • Perception: D


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    Kurenai
    Kurenai


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    Post by Kurenai Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:04 am

    You still only have 4 durability points at B tier Con, which means if you activate anything higher than fourth gate you've already started your permanent damage timer and have begun to rack up the debuffs for it's deactivation. The gates were supposed to be a last resort if your body couldn't handle it and this write up emphasizes that quite nicely. Hell, even having the first or second gate open will only give you 2 posts of usage before you start stacking debuffs for a grand total of 6 posts.
    That has little to do with the A-rank con for the higher Gates. If the point is supposed to be a last ditch, it's still doing that. But even Might Guy would last longer than 1/2 posts if you consider what he did exactly at the end of the series. That'd just be the benefit of being physically tougher than Lee. Lower cost means longer maintenance.

    Putting A tier con as the requirement for all gates just bumps up their ability to activate those higher gates at the bare minimum. Hell, it's almost more of a buff at that point than not.

    A Tier con gives you 7 durability points going off this write up, that means you get at least 1 post with even the seventh gate before you have to deactivate it to avoid stacking the debuffs. Not only that, but it gives them 8 posts to maintain it after the point they wouldn't be able to avoid stacking.
    Getting faster to a death state isn't a buff in my eyes. Feel free to activate all seven Gates in one post if you wish. If the target lasts even one post, you pretty much burned up your 'last resort'. That sounds like you didn't get the most out of that technique.

    As for the 8 post maintenance, if that makes it too strong I think we should finetune that rather than denying someone a one-post all-out power when they work their way up to A-rank just to get access to its full power. I think Might Guy himself said not everyone is able to access all of the Gates?

    Next, gates isn't supposed to be an 'end all be all' type of thing, it's supposed to be a powerful restricted. If one trains gates, but doesn't have the perception to keep up with themselves during it, that's their own fault for not building into it. It only takes A Tier perception to avoid tunnel vision at S++ speed if I remember correctly.
    Fair point. I was throwing that one in as food for thought.


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