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    Nukes Are Bad

    Marcus
    Marcus

    Village : Kumogakure
    Posts : 85
    Join date : 2020-10-04
    Age : 26

    Nukes Are Bad Empty Nukes Are Bad

    Post by Marcus Tue Nov 03, 2020 12:07 am

    Hello people of Gladius! I'm Marcus, one of the newer guys to the site, but I'm making this thread at the behest of people in chat since I'm apparently very "eloquent". To be quick because I'm tired, people in chat were discussing custom entities and their effects on the site as a whole. I haven't done much roleplaying the last decade, but when I was doing roleplaying as my only major hobby I did learn a few things about systems and how good ones and bad ones function. Most of the systems on the site work wonderfully from what I've initially seen, but it seems there was a general consensus that custom restricteds pose a bit of a problem, namely the entity and ES ones. The general points brought up by me and others were:

    (If I forgot anything post it below please, I tried to remember it all)


    1. Custom Entities largely make the standard bijuu all but irrelevant. Players do not have a choice in how bijuu experience needs invested, how the stats work, what the abilities are, or what techniques are available to them. These are all set and provide the basis for what an entity is capable of at X cost. However, custom entities are able to, well, fully customize all of these options even going so far as to remove certain things to bolster the powers of other things. This allows custom entities to be tailor made to a character which greatly boosts their level of power than simply receiving a bijuu with a predetermined set of stats and abilities would as that simply adds to their arsenal rather than boosting what they already have to ridiculous heights.


    2. The ability to have a guaranteed custom entity at a predetermined level of experience means that players make a character with the thought of what the entity will be at the very start of character creation. At least, any roleplayer I've ever met who was serious enough to be planning to reach endgame would be thinking of it. They might not have everything fully fleshed out but they have a general idea of what they would want that entity to be in relation to their planned end game build. This means that each entity that everyone is guaranteed to have is tailor made for each players end game stats, skills, and customs. This point is an extension of what I brought up in the point above, but more in depth. When it is tailor made to suit someone, it provides MORE power than a regular entity or ES would do as they can perfectly shore up any weaknesses they may have for their character or enhance their strengths to a point where it's difficult if not impossible to actually defeat them without an equally hax ability of your own. Being able to trade stats for abilities or vice versa makes this even worse, as you can tailor an entity without boosts but with ludicrous abilities that are, in most cases, better than any stat boosts you could receive.


    3. The inability to stack ES boosts with Entity boosts but allowing abilities is a good idea when it comes to canon restricteds of these levels. This does not work as well with customs versions of this because one can make an ES with no abilities other than stat boosts which could theoretically get you seven or eight stats depending on how you went about it. These boosts can also boost to X tier unlike Entity boosts which would be fine if you couldn't make custom entities. Since you can, then that allows you to make an ES that's solely boosts for the nutty stats people can get while having an Entity that is nothing but abilities with zero stat boosts. That allows you to access the full power of both restricteds rather than the issue with canon ones in that half of one or the other will be largely negated if they're stacked. As one can imagine, a full power ES and Entity stacked vs a full power ES and half power Entity or vice versa makes for a slight power imbalance.


    4. Entities are supposed to be special, unique things that are a village's secret weapon. They were supposed to be what turned the tide of battle, the thing that everyone wanted to work for to attain. Now, everyone gets one of them. While that sounds like a fair endgame, it's the equality of opportunity that should be pushed. Now since everyone gets a custom entity tailor made to their character, it renders anyone below S class useless in a major battle because they don't have what the other people have. It also means that literally every single battle is going to turn into who has the best entity/ES combo tailor made for their build with everyone swinging around the biggest... well, you know... until someone screws up their post and gets ruled hit by the other guy. There's not really much to do with tactics, strategy, or crafting a roleplay when every thread that's more than a NPC mission is likely to turn into an all out slugfest between two beings with the power of god. That's what endgame Naruto turned out and I think most people agree that endgame Naruto was not exactly the best part of the series specifically because of powercreep.




    Basically, if everyone has a nuke then nobody can really use a nuke. People who aren't near endgame are relegated to the peanut gallery and are unable to take part in most major battles if there's even one S or X class person in the thread.

    What can be done about this?

    Personally, I think Custom Entities should be banned and allow people to register Custom Restricted Techniques and ES only. Entities as a restricted class should be nixed and mixed in with the ES category as a powerful ES that, obviously, costs more exp than a normal one like Sage Mode would cost. Entities should be relegated to bijuu or other such levels of power such as the Chimera technique with no custom form of one allowed. Entities are meant to be powerful in canon, and custom ones make them wholly unappealing to those who don't want a canon one for lore purposes.

    If someone wants to get an ES if offered an Entity, they should be able to make a normal ES with perhaps ONE extra ability or ONE extra stat as compensation. That makes it stronger than other ES but not ridiculous to the level of an Entity. People should be allowed one ES slot and one Restricted Tech slot with a third one open for whichever they choose, though the same stacking rules should apply. The third slot should only be given as an ES if they are offered an ES IN CHARACTER but decline it. Otherwise, I propose making A class give the Restricted Technique slot and X class giving another Restricted Technique should the character not have received a second ES in character. Maybe that's a bit convoluted to put into the rules, but I don't think custom Entities will do the site much good in the long haul.


    _________________
    Spoiler:

    Items:

    Stats:
    Strength: D
    Constitution: C+
    Stamina: C
    Speed: D
    Coordination: C
    Intelligence: D
    Perception: C

    Renown: 0

    Link to updates: https://gladiusnarutorp.forumotion.com/t4342-marcus-s-updates
    Seigi
    Seigi

    Posts : 225
    Join date : 2017-09-14

    Nukes Are Bad Empty Re: Nukes Are Bad

    Post by Seigi Tue Nov 03, 2020 1:45 am

    Even though I am planning on registering a custom entity, I agree with this entirely. Custom Entities are the meta right now and they def take away from the massive powerhouse Bijuu are supposed to be. If everyone is superpowered, then nobody is.


    _________________
    Spoiler:
    Character Name: Seigi Douchiwa
    Spendable Experience: 675
    Total Experience: 8030
    Renown: 0
    b]Ryo:[/b] 275000
    Stats:

    • Strength: D
    • Constitution: D
    • Stamina: B (A++) (Uzumaki) (Living style)(Chakra Armour)
    • Speed: A
    • Coordination: S
    • Intelligence: A
    • Perception: B



    Link to Character Updates: https://gladiusnarutorp.forumotion.com/t2516-seigi-s-updates
    Link to Character Application: https://gladiusnarutorp.forumotion.com/t2509-seigi-douchiwa
    Link to Known Techniques: WIP
    Hana Kaguya
    Hana Kaguya
    Mizukage

    Posts : 870
    Join date : 2017-09-13

    Character File
    Skills & Elements: Taijutsu | Sensory | Ninjutsu| Kenjutsu | Water | Lightning
    Class: X
    Ryo: 10,000

    Nukes Are Bad Empty Re: Nukes Are Bad

    Post by Hana Kaguya Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:39 am

    Disclaimer: Having already regged a Custom Entity I also agree with this message, and frankly, would not mind retroactively removing the Entity or losing it thru any means to implement this.

    Gladius has quickly become something it fought to prevent for the longest time. Gladius initially valued the classic Naruto combat over Super Saiyans running around. Restricteds wind up to be something every character has strapped under their belt, and given how powerful they are due to being tailored to a specific build, custom restricteds become disgustingly meta that settling for any of the canon restricteds become purely out of convenience. Frankly, I believed this meta was something people just preferred in general, so I went with the flow, but after the Discord discussion it has been brought to my attention that others have the same perspective of balance.

    Bijuu are finite, have plenty of weaknesses, and serve as major plot devices in the lore. But it is far too common to see custom entities work around these, or as Marcus simply put:


    fully customize all of these options even going so far as to remove certain things to bolster the powers of other things. This allows custom entities to be tailor made to a character which greatly boosts their level of power than simply receiving a bijuu with a predetermined set of stats and abilities would as that simply adds to their arsenal rather than boosting what they already have to ridiculous heights.

    I feel Marcus covered just about all the major points and expressions of how I feel regarding this subject. Ideally I would like to see these changes:

    1.) Limit custom restricteds to Enhanced States and Technique. From my experience modding multiple Entities I know they are simply troublesome to balance. A Restricted Technique is easy: they're just exclusives on steroids. An Enhanced State more or less follows the Sage Mode guidelines: a handful of UQ boosts, a few neat abilities, and access to a special release. The problem falls with Entities, which are commonly viewed as "epic" endgame abilities and the apex of restricteds. This results in a tedious and frustrating process to try and balance a concept to work best with a character which inevitably results in some Entities being grossly overpowered while others nerfed. And that's just the nature of the beast. Entities are essentially systems in themselves, requiring weeks of debate and careful consideration. I can assure you the Bijuu guidelines were not created in a weekend, but unfortunately a lot of Entities are approved in this time frame, give a few days.

    2.) Custom Restricteds should always be weaker than Canon Restricteds. The custom restricted has the benefit of being tailored to one's build and are virtually endless, thus inherently more powerful. I can't tell you how many resets I've seen after a restricted has been achieved, which I believe is just a misuse of the reset system entirely, but that's just me.

    These two solutions alone will solve a ton of balancing issues, bring a lot of tasteful Naruto lore back onto the site, and help improve the site's power scaling a ton. This next suggestion is something I would personally like to see among these changes which I feel will solve just about every issue I have with the current power scaling the site has:

    3.) Remove the Freebie Restricted at S/X Class. This will likely be very unpopular, but hear me out. Ever since we lowered the EXP required to class up and now (for some reason) increased the means to gain EXP, a lot or characters have been essentially shitracing to their Restricted slot. I've noticed this over a year ago when Google Docs was "discovered" on Gladius. Grinding for EXP is just business, and I feel, actually I KNOW a lot of that motivation is to reach S-Class or X-Class to unlock a restricted. A lot of characters are too focused on the destination and not the journey, so to speak. And while there is nothing wrong with people RPing how they please, this creates a situation where having a custom Entity or ES is essential to stand up with the big dogs, which of course goes back to the whole "Fights are just Super Saiyans, post-war Naruto now" instead of fights being the Naruto we know and fell in love with.

    Working off Marcus' post I feel we can add a character's ability to create a custom Restricted Technique at S-Class, or X-Class for starting Jounin, but that's it. Since every ninja has access to creating custom technique it would make sense to see a lot more signature technique, with the class requirement representing a character's mastery. Enhanced States or Entities will be granted solely by IC means by a combination of great story building, event participation, and activity. These restricteds were always meant to be a privilege. I would LOVE to see more characters obtaining ES and Entities at an early stage and developing with them, rather than reaching S-Class and dropping 3,000 EXP into their new, custom Entity immediately maxing it out.

    The Chuunin Exams were a great example of this (blowing my load over my event, I know) because we ended up seeing three Genin C - B class obtain an ES and now they get to grow with them instead of joining the shit race to S-Class.

    ~~~


    That's all I have to say regarding this subject, but I would like the readers to please consider the direction of the site, reread everybody's post in this thread three times, and then make a response. Let's not forget the Naruto we all fell in love with.

    Bijuu are King. Canon abilities are cool. Customs are awesome but should be weakened. Let's rely more on our character's skills and strategy over Super Saiyan fighting, damage immunities, and what other craziness I've seen.


    _________________
    Stats:
    Strength: B
    Constitution: A (A++ Physical)
    Stamina: A (S w/Demon Bell)
    Speed: B
    Coordination: A+
    Intelligence: D
    Perception: A
    Valen Minamoto
    Valen Minamoto
    Genin

    Posts : 440
    Join date : 2018-10-18
    Age : 28

    Character File
    Skills & Elements: Fire, Kenjutsu
    Class: D
    Ryo:

    Nukes Are Bad Empty Re: Nukes Are Bad

    Post by Valen Minamoto Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:01 am

    While I can agree with some forms of this, I cannot agree with it overall simply because of my past experience in roleplay communities. These experiences has generally involved the 'old guard' (It doesn't necessary have to be a member who's been around longer but I'm using the term for the sake of simplicity) constantly able to curb stomp those weaker than them with their shiny stronger stuff and making the entire experience less fun for others. This is supposed to be a fun environment, a game, collaborative writing in an anime universe we know and love. Isn't giving everyone access to similar things conducive to that?

    But I digress.

    With my viewpoints above in mind, I did consider the problem from a different angle. Which is rather than nerfing custom entities or outright removing them, why not give those with the Canon Bijuu a bit of 'oomph' not in so much as a massive buff, but perhaps an overhaul in some of their restrictions.

    Assuming bijuu are the big bads of the restricted world, which is more than fair really, lets start by settling a few things right.

    First custom entities should be affected by the same techniques that would affect Jinchuriki in similar ways. Regardless of someone's attempted flavour to bullshit around them. I'm not sure if that is one of the 'weaknesses' that custom entities circumvent that Xur mentioned or not but if it is then it shouldn't have to be a problem or a worry for anyone.

    Second, control fights as they are for the canon Jins are fucking bullshit, and they should be revamped entirely to provide an even experience for all participants. Lemme explain.

    Whenever a Jinchuuriki feels that they’ve reached a point in their journey that full manipulation of the Bijuu’s power is needed, they may challenge that Bijuu in combat. This battle will take place in the mind, with the battlefield set as whatever that specific Jinchuuriki’s mental scape is –it was a basement level factory for Naruto in canon, for example. During this battle, the Jinchuuriki will have access to none of the Bijuu’s power and, in most cases, will be fighting that Bijuu at full strength one-on-one. Those that possess the Sharingan or other Jinchuuriki can enter the mind to aid in the battle, as well as any who have implanted their chakra within the seal itself, but only for a short while, as when Kushina aided Naruto. However, the true meaning of this battle is the drawing out of the Bijuu’s chakra and containing it within the host, a task that is left entirely to the Jinchuuriki. Bijuu of higher tails have denser levels of chakra that is both heavier and more toxic than lesser tails, though the disparity in actual amount is small. For every Tail that the Bijuu possesses, the Jinchuuriki will need to complete an extraction. An extraction is done by disabling the Bijuu long enough to remove all or a portion of its chakra, done once per post.

    Once all of the Bijuu’s chakra has been extracted, the Jinchuuriki is now able to use it freely. Initial Jinchuuriki Mode and the Version forms no longer reduce Intelligence and Constitution, and the Jinchuuriki will now gain access to the Tailed Beast Telepathy technique. However, the primary benefit is that Bijuu abilities will now deteriorate the seal at a slower rate, allowing more usage of demon chakra before the seal is broken.

    So, you're telling me that Rin Uchiha, the Jinchuriki of the nine tails, has to go 9 rounds with the thing to get 9 uninterrupted posts of chakra drain while the thing is healing? What does he get for this frankly incredible achievement? The same boosts in the big bad cloak that the one tail Jin got, or any custom entity who only have to beat theirs to a pulp.

    That's ludicrous from any reasonable perspective.

    In my opinion the bijuu stats should be revamped to make them a singular, bigger, badder opponent, and it's just a 1v1 grudge match to knock the thing out before it kills you. The nod to canon is all well and good, but this seems a bit much.

    Next, while yes a custom entity can be 'tailored' to a specific build to perfectly mesh with it the bijuu abilities are things that any build can benefit from to insane degrees.

    Or are any of you about to tell me that you wouldn't benefit from an S++ shield, 8 UQ tiers, access to another stamina pool, regeneration, a giant chakra guard beast, a giant transformation, and an automatic genjutsu safety net isn't going to help your build to an astounding degree?

    If not than Imma have to ask for some of yours builds because I've clearly been doing something wrong.

    The above things aren't even counting the other benefits like.

    Fully manipulatable chakra limbs
    A cloak that is immune to piercing
    A cloak that 'lulnopes' sharingans infinite precogs
    Plus whatever additional passive effect they give such as access to 'x' release.

    Anyone actually wanna say the above isn't going to perfectly back up any build? Some might be redundant, but every single bit of it is useful to an insane degree.

    But I understand, people want the canon bijuu to be 'special' because frankly, we do know and love them and I have a suggestion for it.

    First step is to revamp the bijuu's stats to making them bigger, badder fights.

    The other one, and I know this might make some people think I'm crazy, or make Nyg samjackon.gif me in my DM's, but let them boost to X tier.

    Okay just kidding...mostly, so the thought is to give most bijuu's a stat they specialize in and make that stat on the bijuu X rank. The jin's chakra cloak specifically does buff that stat, regardless of what it is, by 2 tiers.

    Provided the Jin follows the other 'boost to X tier' rules, which essentially is just having the stat in question be S rank base, then they can then shove it to X.

    Now two of the bijuu obviously, get the short end of the stick, cause 7 stats, 9 bijuu. which is why I'm suggesting the comeliness stat. Ichibi and Nibi would instead get an S++ but instead have a bijuu control fight is that much easier since bijuu can't buff their own stats to my knowledge, so their base stats is what they got. So, no X rank stat to deal with it, obviously some of the bijuu will have X rank stat that isn't super useful at that point, but if what I'm thinking works the natural power of their base capability makes up for it.

    The important thing about this is that custom entities do not get access to that X rank capability, doesn't matter what they try to trade for it or whatever, they just cannot have access to that ability, in anyway.

    Regarding buffing the bijuu's stats, here's my thoughts.
    Spoiler:

    Shukaku (One-Tails/Ichibi)

    Strength: S (Primary)
    Constitution: S (Secondary)
    Stamina: S
    Speed: S (Quinary)
    Coordination: S++ (Quaternary)
    Intelligence: S
    Perception: S (Tertiary)

    Matatabi (Two-Tails/Niibi)

    Strength: S (Quaternary)
    Constitution: S (Quinary)
    Stamina: S
    Speed: S++ (Primary)
    Coordination: S (Secondary)
    Intelligence: S
    Perception: S (Tertiary)

    Isobu (Three-Tails/Sanbi)

    Strength: S (Tertiary)
    Constitution: X (Primary)
    Stamina: S++
    Speed: S (Quinary)
    Coordination: S (Quaternary)
    Intelligence: S
    Perception: S (Secondary)

    Son Goku (Four-Tails/Yonbi)

    Strength: X (Primary)
    Constitution: S (Tertiary)
    Stamina: S
    Speed: S (Quinary)
    Coordination: S++ (Secondary)
    Intelligence: S
    Perception: S (Quaternary)

    Kokuō (Five-Tails/Gobi)

    Strength: S (Secondary)
    Constitution: S (Quaternary)
    Stamina: S
    Speed: S++
    Coordination: S (Quinary)
    Intelligence: X (Primary)
    Perception: S (Tertiary)

    Saiken (Six-Tails/Rokubi)

    Strength: S (Quaternary)
    Constitution: S++  (Secondary)
    Stamina: X (Primary)
    Speed: S (Quinary)
    Coordination: S (Tertiary)
    Intelligence: S
    Perception: S

    Chōmei (Seven-Tails/Nanabi)

    Strength: S (Quinary)
    Constitution: S (Tertiary)
    Stamina: S
    Speed: X (Primary)
    Coordination: S (Quaternary)
    Intelligence: S
    Perception: S++ (Secondary)

    Gyūki (Eight-Tails/Hachibi)

    Strength: S++ (Secondary)
    Constitution: S (Quaternary)
    Stamina: S
    Speed: S (Quinary)
    Coordination: X (Primary)
    Intelligence: S
    Perception: S(Tertiary)


    Kurama (Nine-Tails/Kyuubi)

    Strength: S (Secondary)
    Constitution: S (Quaternary)
    Stamina: S
    Speed: S (Tertiary)
    Coordination: S++ (Quinary)
    Intelligence: S
    Perception: X (Primary)

    Big boi beasts.

    Kurama gets the X tier perception because negative emotion sensing is strong asf.

    That should make them much more difficult to fight for a single round, but you only have to fight one single round anyway if the control fight is changed.

    Yes, this means V1 and V2 cloaks would be a little different in their stat buffs, they may even need to be rethought out a bit.

    Yes, the reason control fights get so much harder is because the later tails of V1 and V2 give more and more stats but that's experience investment requirement level at best.

    That's about all I got right now, I'm all for making the original 9 special in some ways but on the whole I don't think doing away with custom entities is the way to do it. I think it'll just breed a toxic environment.

    You can still give them out for events and whatever and if people decide to change their build plan to better work with the bijuu's primary stat, then goodie. If not, well you still get a friggin bijuu, and frankly even now, they're strong asf. I debated taking one for a bit instead of making my one custom entity.

    But I've word spewed on a page enough, I'll let you all get back to your morning/afternoon/evening.

    Happy posting fellow rpers!


    _________________
    Character Name: Valen Minamoto
    Spendable Experience: 0
    Total Experience: 700
    Renown: 0
    Ryo:
    Stats:

    • Strength: C
    • Constitution: D++
    • Stamina: D
    • Speed: D
    • Coordination: C
    • Intelligence: E++
    • Perception: D


    Link to Character Updates: Here
    Link to Character Application: Here
    Hana Kaguya
    Hana Kaguya
    Mizukage

    Posts : 870
    Join date : 2017-09-13

    Character File
    Skills & Elements: Taijutsu | Sensory | Ninjutsu| Kenjutsu | Water | Lightning
    Class: X
    Ryo: 10,000

    Nukes Are Bad Empty Re: Nukes Are Bad

    Post by Hana Kaguya Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:26 am

    Tamwyn wrote:While I can agree with some forms of this, I cannot agree with it overall simply because of my past experience in roleplay communities. These experiences has generally involved the 'old guard' (It doesn't necessary have to be a member who's been around longer but I'm using the term for the sake of simplicity) constantly able to curb stomp those weaker than them with their shiny stronger stuff and making the entire experience less fun for others. This is supposed to be a fun environment, a game, collaborative writing in an anime universe we know and love. Isn't giving everyone access to similar things conducive to that?

    That's the whole point of Naruto and the message it tries to draw. Is it not obvious yet?

    Nukes Are Bad MedicalBriefEyra-small

    Teamwork

    Super jacked up Jinchu are supposed to be challenging. You should rely on teammates to overcome greater challenges. Giving out Entities a dime a dozen eliminates the aspect challenge. Fights just become two people swinging their big sticks around. The outcome of the battle is mostly determined by "who has the better reg" which, surprise, customs will always be superior.

    With my viewpoints above in mind, I did consider the problem from a different angle. Which is rather than nerfing custom entities or outright removing them, why not give those with the Canon Bijuu a bit of 'oomph' not in so much as a massive buff, but perhaps an overhaul in some of their restrictions.

    Buffing something as a balancing mechanic is very poor practice. You talk about an "old guard" gatekeeping forums, but making an already powerful ability even more powerful only pushes the power gap between restricted and non-restricted users to impossible limits.


    Or are any of you about to tell me that you wouldn't benefit from an S++ shield, 8 UQ tiers, access to another stamina pool, regeneration, a giant chakra guard beast, a giant transformation, and an automatic genjutsu safety net isn't going to help your build to an astounding degree?

    If not than Imma have to ask for some of yours builds because I've clearly been doing something wrong.

    The above things aren't even counting the other benefits like.

    Fully manipulatable chakra limbs
    A cloak that is immune to piercing
    A cloak that 'lulnopes' sharingans infinite precogs
    Plus whatever additional passive effect they give such as access to 'x' release.

    Anyone actually wanna say the above isn't going to perfectly back up any build? Some might be redundant, but every single bit of it is useful to an insane degree.

    Marcus put it best.

    Although those abilities are very nice:


    This allows custom entities to be tailor made to a character which greatly boosts their level of power than simply receiving a bijuu with a predetermined set of stats and abilities would as that simply adds to their arsenal rather than boosting what they already have to ridiculous heights.




    After some thought and other opinions I feel perhaps removing custom entities would be a bit too far, though I stand strongly for my 2nd and 3rd point.


    I want to stress the value of implementing points 2 and 3 in my first post. People naturally use Bijuu as the baseline when regging a custom Entity, or SM when regging a custom ES. But naturally having the freedom to customize a restricted is a perk in itself. This should naturally shaft the power of a custom to some degree. And point 3 is very important to implement since the race to S/X has become too common to simply nab those restricteds. This eliminates the massive power disparity between A to S class, which of course gets rid of the "I have more EXP so I am untouchable" playstyle we see currently with the free restricted ES/Entities that are so common.


    _________________
    Stats:
    Strength: B
    Constitution: A (A++ Physical)
    Stamina: A (S w/Demon Bell)
    Speed: B
    Coordination: A+
    Intelligence: D
    Perception: A
    Chigetsu
    Chigetsu

    Posts : 602
    Join date : 2019-11-30

    Nukes Are Bad Empty Re: Nukes Are Bad

    Post by Chigetsu Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:50 am

    It’s obvious that custom Entities are the current meta, as Seigi said. Everyone and their mother is going to claim one when they get to S/X-Rank, because there’s blatantly no reason not to. Why ever claim a restricted tech at those ranks, or an enhanced state? There are very few exceptions to this, like when your build needs an X-Rank stat in it, but the vast, vast majority of people will make a custom entity and just talor it entirely to their build. I think Marcus really eloquently lays it out and I’m glad that he made this post and we all could discuss things on the Discord, since it allowed us all to organize our thoughts very well. Everyone can get an entity completely custom to them and work it out so that it perfectly enhances their build, so what point is there to getting a Bijuu? As Seigi and Xur and Marcus have said, this sort of power creep turns things into late game Naruto, where everyone is a nuke and superpowered, and that means that none of it is special anymore.

    I agree fully with Marcus’s proposal, that Custom Entities as a whole should be banned, echoing the reasons he gave, which were better said than anything I could have.


    _________________
    Character Sheet:

    Character Name: Chigetsu Hozuki
    Spendable Experience: 1240
    Total Experience: 6560
    Renown: 2,650
    Ryo:  433,650
    Stats:

    • Strength: D
    • Constitution: C
    • Stamina: A+
    • Speed: A
    • Coordination: A
    • Intelligence: B
    • Perception: A

    Link to Character Updates: https://gladiusnarutorp.forumotion.com/t2625-chigetsu-s-updates

    Spoiler:

    On Person
    Mountain Jacket
    Hozuki Dehydrification Belt
    1 Hip Pouch
    - 15 Kunai
    - 10 Explosive Tags
    - 1 Flash Bomb
    - 1 Smoke Bomb
    - 150 ft Steel Wire
    - Sack of Military Ration Pills
    - Radio
    - 2 Batteries
    3 Holsters
    - 10 Shuriken Each
    Baldric
    - Ninjato
    - Titanium Water Bottle

    At Home
    Mail Shirt
    Ebony Woven Silk

    Kitsuki Kurahasa
    Kitsuki Kurahasa
    Genin

    Posts : 818
    Join date : 2017-09-14

    Nukes Are Bad Empty Re: Nukes Are Bad

    Post by Kitsuki Kurahasa Tue Nov 03, 2020 1:42 pm

    I think there were a lot of fantastic points made in this thread. There is a lot to touch on but I think I will start by addressing some of the proposals that Xur made:

    1. I am totally against banning custom entities. The whole point of roleplaying Naruto imo is to create custom characters, with custom jutsu, with custom items, in a custom setting. Its what separates our characters from those in canon. Granted we want to stay as close to the theme as possible, but I don't think that forecloses the possibility of having custom entities. I agree they are difficult to balance but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. The Bijuu system gives a great general guide to the power that an entity is supposed to have and its up to staff to use their judgment to evaluate which deviations are appropriate. Seeing all of the amazing things we have accomplished on this site, I do not believe for one second that that is a task beyond us as a community.

    I agree with Xur, Chi, Seigi, and Marcus's points on the problems inherent with custom entities. There are legitimate concerns here and I think they need to be addressed. Custom Entities have become the meta and have sucked the oxygen out of the room. I also agree its unfair to those who chose Bijuu as while they are powerful from a general perspective, they cannot compete with an entity that is narrowly tailored to someone's build.

    The answer is to limit, and if necessary, nerf them but not ban them completely.


    Special Note About Power-Creep & Endgame Naruto
    I have thought A LOT about this recently. I've noticed this to be the case with many characters on Gladius and on Naruto sites in general. After some reflection, I've come to the conclusion that over time this is more or less inevitable on any semi-competitive Naruto RPG.

    Competition by its very nature compels people to create and utilize bigger, badder, weapons to overwhelm their opposition. Sure, all of us love early to mid Naruto (Chuunin Exams come to mind) but trying to build a generalist character is frustrating when all your hard work is for naught because someone else went for the shock and awe strategy. You don't want your character dying or living in perpetual fear because someone was willing to push the boundaries in ways you were not.

    This is inevitable. It can be seen IRL with arms races, competition between businesses, anywhere you look really. Powercreep is the natural consequences of playing in an environment such as this. Kishi compounded this problem by granting certain clans outrageous abilities. Uchiha Clan is chock full of abilities to the point where if took a hardline stance against customs, they would be the most powerful thing on the site as opposed to one powerful thing among many. The race to endgame naruto is a natural byproduct of any game system and I think artificially putting too many caps on power level just drives people away.

    While its a real problem, endgame Naruto will forever haunt the spectre of a Naruto RPG unless you go full carebear where violence doesn't matter because you cannot die without consenting to it.

    2. I'm not sure I fully agree with this one either but I do think it has more merit than the first point. I think Andy's point was spot on. We don't want to create a situation where power is centralized in the hands of a few characters which tbh was the state of affairs on Gladius for a long time. Its why the prospect of a competitive war between nations was a total fantasy. Any war would boil down to whether or not the Big Three were present and who they sided with. Everyone else was just extras. But now, for the first time in a long time you have a LOT of characters who are capable of assisting in high level battles against or alongside the Big Three. I think this is in part due to the fact that custom entities have become widely available and these custom entities are on par with, or in some cases better than, canon Restricteds.

    3. I think this is probably the best solution along with some combination of returning to previous experience gains. I think getting a custom Restricted should require lots of hard work. I'd say maybe a minimum of a year and lots of character development, plot participation, and just good roleplaying in a way that helps the site. Regardless of whether you get it by trading or hitting S/X class it should be earned never given. This is a proposal I can absolutely get behind. I'm also open to the idea of capping the total number of custom entities/enhanced states.


    Special Note About Timing
    While I am open to changing the Restricted Progression System, I'm loathe to do so in the short term. I don't believe in taking away people's custom entities because I personally don't think that's fair. We created and established a system that everyone can participate in. If someone told me I had to lose an Entity version of Zizz/Hachi Kets on my characters I'd be very upset. I put a lot of time and energy into writing those stories and while everyone else may not do that I don't want to punish those that do.

    I also think since we are in the middle of a War Arc its doubly counter-intuitive to make major changes to the Restricted system. People who have RPed here for many months and years are now getting close to their S/X Class Restricted and I don't want to cut them off without advanced warning. Especially during a time when PvP is prevalent. I think there is a fair number of those with Restricteds in each village, certainly enough to make battles fairly interesting. Therefore, I think there is value in keeping the current system in play.

    I also think it works thematically. The plot on Gladius has been alluding to a cataclysmic event since we started. Many things have been leading up to something like this: Hagoromo's Comet, the Assault on the Blood Prison, the Rise of the Society.... all of these events have pointed in this direction for months. I kinda see it as Entities realizing Earth is ground-zero for a major event and they are choosing their champions left and right to secure their interests. Once the World War is over, I can see things cooling down and from that point on we can make the necessary changes.

    Now would probably be the wrong time to do it.


    Miscellaneous Things
    1. I'm against buffing Bijuu. I worked waaaaay too hard to balance these guys just for us to buff them again. Although I do concede as the game exists they are not nearly as prominent and desirable as they should be.

    2. Experience gains are a place ripe for changes. I think it was a mistake to increase the gains and I vocalized my concerns when we returned to OG Gladius. I think its probably best to return to the old values at some point in the near future.


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    Nukes Are Bad Empty Re: Nukes Are Bad

    Post by Mort Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:31 pm

    I think the entity slot should still stay around, and that true custom entities (Karaku, Rafaela, Shiva, Raiju) should all take the custom Bijuu slot, as the ability to make custom bijuu are still a neat idea, but I do agree the thought of giving everyone bijju, while a really fun idea, is a bit wild. However, outside of those (currently 5) custom bijuu slots, we have 2 examples of canon entity slots that doesn't make a bijuu-like entity; Chimera Tech and the Investing Skill. the former is an entity technique, and the latter is a skill. Heck, let's focus on one of the aspects of a custom bijuu: the unique ability. these are basically a free bloodline in the form of an advanced element, unique creation/ninjutsu (7 tail insect jutsu & 8-tail ink), skillpower increase (2 tail fire), skill cost decrease (3-tail water), and/or a new skill (1 tail fuin/9 tail sensory). They're basically a free bloodline in addition to their boosts, so why not let them work like that in the form of an Entity level ES, or heck, let those who reach that stage trade the very big power boost for a bigger range of choices, like trading in the single slot for skill points, or something along those lines. Here's just an idea I wrote up as a rough possible solution.

    Shinobi Paragon
    As one of the incredible Shinobi who have honed their ninja craft, the user gets to choose three of the following to permanently add to their character:
    ➤Extra Studies: The user gets a single skill point they can spend. If traded for a stat raise, bloodline users can get 1 extra stat raise ONCE (24 for clan and 25 for clanless). This can be chosen multiple times, but once again, the permanent stat raise trade is a 1-time only thing.
    ➤Gift of the Sage: The user gets 1 additional Freebie/Limited UA. If the user chooses Big Boost, it is not capped at A
    ➤Signature Technique: The user chooses 1 jutsu and 4 derivatives. These techniques have a -1 tier cost reduction to use that stacks with other reductions. this cannot be used on restricted techs and don't stack on exclusive techs.
    ➤Fame and Fortune: The user gets the 'Aristocratic' lifestyle permanently without needing to pay ryo for it, instead getting paid 100k ryo per irl month.
    ➤Legendary Find: The user gets 1 X-rank item that is not a building. if the item is ever destroyed or lost to the void , the user can pay 2,000 XP to get a new one with a 1 year irl cooldown before they can get a new one. If it's stolen, tough luck, go get it back.
    ➤Rapid Crafting: The user can pay XP to instantly craft items instead of waiting IRL days.
    E: None
    D: 50 Experience
    C: 200 Experience
    B: 300 Experience
    A: 500 Experience
    S: 700 Experience
    ➤The user can pay 2,000 Experience to unlock a staff controlled S-Class NPC fight that has a single complete bloodline. If they emerge victorious from this battle, they will be able to implant the NPC's bloodline into themselves and ONLY themselves following the implant rules. This implant cannot roll below a 40 using this method.
    If you're wondering where the signature tech idea comes from, I took it from the advertising event 1st place reward (and slightly nerfed it) as it was a neat concept.

    tl;dr, set a limit to the amount of custom bijuu entities, let the rest be either entity-level techs, entity-level ES, or something that takes the idea of parts of them and incorporates already implemented systems like what I made above. That way, Bijuu are still the strong bois, but the ability to refine/widen your skillset is still there.

    EDIT: I though about it and I figured I'd give some quick examples of what I thought Entity level ES & Entity level Techs might be: Limited Infinite Tsukuyomi, Six Paths Sage Mode, Tenseigan, Peacock Wisdom Queen, Rinne-Sharingan, Limited Edo Tensei (yes I know it won't happen, but it's an example)


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    Nukes Are Bad Empty Re: Nukes Are Bad

    Post by Uchiha Akihiro Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:40 pm

    First of all I wanna give props to Marcus for so eloquently stating the conclusions we arrived to in chat yesterday.

    Now on to the subjects at hand:

    Custom Entities


    I don't want to ban custom entities but honestly they've become a problem that takes away from the fun of the game and from the theme of a Naruto role-playing site. There are several solutions to this problem but the most obvious one is banning the registration of custom entities. Especially considering how easy it is to gain experience nowadays.
    I'd frankly feel more comfortable with simply removing the ability of registering custom entities. Perhaps not removing them from people who already registered and have them, but I do think we shouldn't allow any more registrations.

    Nyg wrote:I am totally against banning custom entities. The whole point of roleplaying Naruto imo is to create custom characters, with custom jutsu, with custom items, in a custom setting. Its what separates our characters from those in canon. Granted we want to stay as close to the theme as possible, but I don't think that forecloses the possibility of having custom entities. I agree they are difficult to balance but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. The Bijuu system gives a great general guide to the power that an entity is supposed to have and its up to staff to use their judgment to evaluate which deviations are appropriate. Seeing all of the amazing things we have accomplished on this site, I do not believe for one second that that is a task beyond us as a community.
    I completely understand the appeal of registering custom naruto elements. But there are several problems with this in the case of entities.

    The first one is perhaps the less serious but one that bothers me personally. There's a fundamental difference between entities and the other things you mentioned. And that difference is that there's no way to force an entity to be Naruto themed.

    Think about it. Jutsu will always need hand-seals and chakra, characters have stats and skill points that automatically set their theme as ninjas, and the setting well... the setting is a Naruto one by nature. But in theory there's absolutely nothing preventing me from registering Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny as an entity and just rolling with it. Or registering a zanpakutou as an entity, or Exodia or...well, you get my point.

    And that bothers me. I play on Gladius because it's a naruto themed site, and I like the canon lore. And in the canon lore, Bijuus are a fundamental key part of what motivates actions in this universe. I mean Bijuu were literally the driving force behind most if not all actions taken by the major characters in Naruto. Akatsuki, the main character, the village wars, the shinobi world war, etc. Bijuu always played a key role in these things. Which leads us to the second problem.

    The fact that you can register custom entities at will not only makes Bijuu effectively less powerful, but it basically throws them into the backroom and makes them completely and utterly irrelevant to the setting and geopolitical scenario of our Naruto Universe.  Why should a village fight for the possession of Bijuu? Or for sealing them? The easiest and most obvious solution is to grind its characters and eventually have them register something just as powerful. There's no risk involved either.

    Getting a Bijuu is really a bad idea. The only reason to get one is if you like the site lore and naruto setting to the point of putting yourself at a disadvantage like that.

    Tamwyn wrote:These experiences has generally involved the 'old guard' (It doesn't necessary have to be a member who's been around longer but I'm using the term for the sake of simplicity) constantly able to curb stomp those weaker than them with their shiny stronger stuff and making the entire experience less fun for others.
    I don't think this is a problem. Like Xurious said, the key to being able to do this is teamwork.

    None of what I would consider Gladius' 'old guard' characters are constantly curbing characters weaker than them. But even if they were...There is no character on this site, X-class or not, that can stand and win against the simultaneous assault of 3 or 4 A/S-classes for the simple fact that they'll be outlasted and outmaneuvered in battle. The way our systems work gives numbers a massive advantage. Either through a larger collective stamina pool or the ability to perform several actions simultaneously. Entities are strong, but they're not gods (well, some are but you get my point).

    Tamwyn wrote:Or are any of you about to tell me that you wouldn't benefit from an S++ shield, 8 UQ tiers, access to another stamina pool, regeneration, a giant chakra guard beast, a giant transformation, and an automatic genjutsu safety net isn't going to help your build to an astounding degree?
    I mean I would.

    But I would benefit more if I could get all of this and choose where to allocate those 8UQ tiers on top of that. Or if I could swap the Genjutsu immunity for another thing since my character is already strong with Genjutsu or has a Sharingan. And that's the whole point. Nobody is saying Bijuu are useless. We're saying Bijuu become irrelevant when custom entities enter the fray. They're effectively a worse choice for any character when they should be key and central pieces in any Naruto universe. And on top of this as you correctly pointed out: Their control fights are many times harder.

    Tamwyn wrote:This is supposed to be a fun environment, a game, collaborative writing in an anime universe we know and love. Isn't giving everyone access to similar things conducive to that?
    I think Marcus addressed this quite nicely on point 4:
    @Marcus wrote:
    Entities are supposed to be special, unique things that are a village's secret weapon. They were supposed to be what turned the tide of battle, the thing that everyone wanted to work for to attain. Now, everyone gets one of them. While that sounds like a fair endgame, it's the equality of opportunity that should be pushed.

    Tamwyn wrote:Which is rather than nerfing custom entities or outright removing them, why not give those with the Canon Bijuu a bit of 'oomph' not in so much as a massive buff, but perhaps an overhaul in some of their restrictions.
    I strongly disagree with this. Bijuus don't need buffs, and they were already hard enough to balance. The irrelevance of Bijuu doesn't come from lack of fire power, it comes from lack of tailored fire power/perks. Buffing Bijuu would only lead to more Super Saiyan fights.


    Timing


    If we're going to do this, we should do this as fast as possible in my opinion.
    Nyg wrote:people who have RPed here for many months and years are now getting close to their S/X Class Restricted and I don't want to cut them off without advanced warning.

    I understand the frustration but the alternative to this would be either:

    a)letting them have a restricted and then remove it which is arguably worse
    b)Letting them have restricted and keep it, increasing the number of nukes going around the site.

    Nyg wrote:Therefore, I think there is value in keeping the current system in play.

    The problem is that the more time the current system remains in play the worse the problem gets and the harder it becomes to solve it. From a pragmatic point of view, it's obvious that people will power up a lot with the war and the number of nukes going around will only rise with time. There will always be people close to S/X-rank and we will always be cutting people right before the so called "finish line". The only question is how many people will have crossed / be close to crossing before we implement this. The more we wait, the worse it gets.

    Nyg wrote:I also think it works thematically. The plot on Gladius has been alluding to a cataclysmic event since we started. Many things have been leading up to something like this: Hagoromo's Comet, the Assault on the Blood Prison, the Rise of the Society.... all of these events have pointed in this direction for months. I kinda see it as Entities realizing Earth is ground-zero for a major event and they are choosing their champions left and right to secure their interests.
    I think it's a bit unfair to reduce the "plot on Gladius" to those events. And it's unreasonable to make decisions based on that assumption.

    I mean don't get me wrong, some of those were great and very entertaining. But the plot of Gladius is the plot started by its community and role-played by its characters. All of those were either events, quests or storylines started entirely by staff and with settings entirely decided by staff. I don't think it's fair to make decisions based on the assumption that that is the main plot of Gladius o.o

    The juice of the plot of Gladius to me is like...when Lei attacked Kiri and caused a diplomatic incident, or the Chuunin Exams, or when Alkaid planned an assassination which has had tremendous repercussions up to this day, Nozomi making the decision to declare war upon the world, taking suna, Ei making a stand, when a bunch of people decided to rebuild Iron, Stacks declaring a Neko empire,etc etc. I just think PC on PC plot should be considered, and in fact considered more valuable to defining a "theme" of gladius.

    I don't know, I just don't think the "theme" of gladius should be used to justify delaying this fix especially when the problem gets worse with time.


    Experience


    I think fixing experience rates and class caps could help a lot. I'm glad to see people wanting the experience gains to be lowered back to their original values but I'd go one step further.

    Do you know why everyone running around with nukes wasn't a problem before? Or why S/X-class characters were rarer?
    Because these were the original values to hit a new class:
    C: 2000
    B: 4000
    A: 6000
    S: 8000
    X: 12000

    Then we moved to:
    C: 1500
    B: 2500
    A: 4000
    S: 6000
    X: 8000

    And finally:
    Current values wrote:C: 1000
    B: 2000
    A: 3500
    S: 6000
    X: 8000

    We made it super easy to class up, and on top of that we increased experience gains. Looking at these system values it's only natural that we're all tempted to find a quick posting partner and just grind up classes. It looks achievable in a matter of months.

    Before, it took years to reach X-class. And that was okay, and normal. It had several benefits:


    • Restricteds were gained either through quests or other IC means.
    • The fact that it was so hard to hit X-class meant that people didn't rush towards it.
    • Players enjoyed the journey instead of being fixated on ultimate power at X-class.
    • Fights were more interesting because people needed to be clever with their limited arsenal.
    • The goal wasn't to hit X-class ASAP just to be able to compete. The goal was to enjoy the journey and write a meaningful story knowing you could still compete with others of your rank who were doing the same.
    • We had ninja, not Saiyans.



    Guys, seriously. Genin suck. And that's fucking great. There is no better feeling than registering a shit character and role-play them slowly getting stronger over the years. It's great to be shit together with other Genin. It's great to have a limited arsenal and seeing what you can do with it.

    I know it sounds suspicious to be hearing this from the guy who has an X-class, but some of my favorite rping times with Akihiro happened when he was a Genin, believe it or not. And if we returned to the original values Akihiro would revert to S-class. And often times I've found myself enjoying writing Shiro (my current Genin) posts more than I did Aki's. Because Shiro sucks and has no responsibilities nor does anyone expect much from him. And that's great.

    Nowadays it's far too easy to class up. Hell, you can probably class up to A-rank from C-rank within a single Chuunin Exam. Walk into that thing a naruto, walk out a kakashi.


    But.
    If role-playing a Genin isn't your thing you always had the option to register a Jonin which would start at B-class and wouldn't suck as much, but would still take quite a bit of effort to become polished and become a super great shinobi.

    Guys the main goal isn't to hit X-class. The goal is to enjoy the journey there and seeing what you can do with the few things you have. Hitting X-class is just a consequence of that journey.

    Nyg wrote:I think getting a custom Restricted should require lots of hard work. I'd say maybe a minimum of a year and lots of character development, plot participation, and just good roleplaying in a way that helps the site.
    I completely agree and the funny thing was that this is what we used to have. Giving someone an Entity at X-class made perfect sense, because with the values we had it meant reaching that exp value most likely implied year and lots of character development, plot participation, and just good roleplaying in a way that helps the site. We were rewarding people for that.

    However...We made the rule of giving people an entity at X-class but we forgot how easy we made it to hit X-class at the same time.

    We don't need a "minimum amount of years on site to be given entity" rule. It's okay to give an entity at X-class as long as the values for X-class are actually high.

    I urge you all to consider raising the experience requirements for classing up to what they were and keeping the Restricted Claim at X/S-rank.

      Current date/time is Sat Jun 19, 2021 8:24 am