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    Kyujutsu: more love?

    Kurenai
    Kurenai
    Genin

    Posts : 119
    Join date : 2018-10-29

    Character File
    Skills & Elements: KKG, Ninjutsu, Sensory -- Fire
    Class: D
    Ryo: -

    Kyujutsu: more love? Empty Kyujutsu: more love?

    Post by Kurenai Sun Feb 23, 2020 5:55 am

    I've recently picked up kyujutsu and ran through its rules, regulations and jutsu apps. Having done so, I believe the spec can use a bit more love when compared to other specs.


    Pros:
    - Projectile speed is equal to bow quality. Which is remarkably out of line with other projectile speed rules which either rely on strength or coordination.
    - Eagle Eye perk
    - Massive range end-tier.


    Cons
    - Despite qualifying as a weapon specialisation, kyujutsu doesn't gain chakra cost reduction.
    - Bows require two weapon pieces to be viable, unlike other weapons. This also means double (or more) the ryo cost.
    - The Eagle Eye perk offered requires A-rank perception. Meaning it costs a total of 1650 XP to unlock this perk. Since Eagle Eye's exact abilities are not clarified, one must consider the (ironic) flaw that it can't look through obstacles and therefore becomes redundant quickly in any other environment but the desert or the sea/ocean.
    - Unlike other weapons arts, bows have a minimum stat requirement to be used. They require strength of one rank lower than the bow. This is not the case for any other weapon, even though strength plays an important part in damage calculation.
    - Kyujutsu is, by its nature, restricted in its abilities. But the moment one wishes to expand on it, it requires additional specialisations to complement this. 'Arrow Rain', 'Explosive Arrows' and other 'arcane archery'-like techniques or techniques with more impact than 'I fire an arrow' require other specs most of the time.


    Suggestions
    - Discard arrow speed being equal to bow rank and make both arrow speed and penetration power (aka damage) dependent on strength like other weapons/projectiles. With the quality of the bow determining max range. This implementation would make kyujutsu closer to its sibling weapon-specs in rules and stat reliance, and offer more versatility in stat builds or spec supplementing.

    - Remove stats restrictions so bow use falls in line with other weapons. This grants the shinobi more freedom in when they buy a new bow and allows for mire build versatility.

    - Clarify Eagle Eye's effective ability in full. What can and can't it do exactly, other than 'looking far into the distance'.

    - Make 'Eagle Eye' a free perk. No minimum rank but a direct benefit: a scaling (do)jutsu the way Sensory is given its ability for free. The cost can be free or set at a low minimum, the actual perception range dependent on the user's natural perception. I believe this makes the perk useful for every archer, not just high-ranked/end-tier users.

    - Set kyujutsu apart from weapon specialisations by making it a 'hybrid' specialisation. A natural mix between weapon and ninjutsu. This will make it less dependent on additional SP expenditure while offering more versatility in builds.

    - Other...? Post your thoughts :3


    Last edited by Kurenai on Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:20 pm; edited 4 times in total


    _________________


    Kyujutsu: more love? Kopie_10

    Kurenai:

    Strength: D
    Constitution: D
    Stamina: D [50]
    Speed: D
    Coordination: C
    Intelligence: D
    Perception: C



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    Mal'Zeth Muramatsu
    Mal'Zeth Muramatsu

    Posts : 89
    Join date : 2020-01-26

    Kyujutsu: more love? Empty Re: Kyujutsu: more love?

    Post by Mal'Zeth Muramatsu Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:32 am

    As I recall, you need both high strength to fire a bow, and high coordination to even aim it.

    That's the correlation between strength and coordination in regards to bow fired projectiles, the arrow speed/power behind a bow shot is dependent on the bow as well as the user. So if the quality of the bow has no play in regard to how those numbers are brought about then you might well pick up a stick and string and fire away.

    The bows quality effectively denotes the 'draw weight' and the force in which the bow string snaps back into it's original position. That would bring about the speed and power of the shot. That's directly tied to the quality of the bow, not the person.

    In regards to 'eagle eye' being free, it is free, because you get it as a perk no other skill/user gets upon getting A tier perception with the Kyujutsu skill.

    If I take A tier perception with Nin, I don't get a free perk besides what's actually included in perception, which is what I paid 1650 exp for.

    I do believe it needs to be clarified better though.

    In regards to Kyujutsu not getting a chakra cost reduction

    You pull out an A quality arrow, pull back your A quality bow with your B tier strength, aim with your A tier coordination and fire it, and what do you get?

    An attack that goes 1.5 kilometers away.

    That attack also, didn't cost any chakra.

    Kyujutsu is the only skill on the site that can attack a target from even close to that distance without using a single bit of chakra with what is frankly, a minimal stat investment. B tier strength, A tier coordination isn't difficult to get to, assuming you have A tier perception

    That's 4250 exp (Of that does assume you didn't build into anything else so I know the number is a little lower than what people might decide is 'valid' but roll with me a minute.)

    1650 starting (Genin obvs)
    2600 exp invest off the start with a genin
    1000 for C class, add in 400 for the spendable
    1200 remaining.
    1000 for B rank, add in 600 for spendable.
    -400, so you hit the stat requirements necessary to hit frankly, far as all get out, plus a little extra, just when you hit B tier, and that's assuming you take absolutely no buffs into account. That's also assuming no skill trades thus far too, which could make that as high 1900 exp to spend on stuff if you're clanless or in an AE clan, or 1400 if you're in a clan that requires you to sack a skill point.

    Frankly, Archery is insanely good as is, it just needs a bit of clarification on eagle eye imo.


    _________________
    Character Name: Mal'Zeth Muramatsu
    Spendable Experience: 0
    Total Experience: 0
    Renown: 0
    Ryo: 25,000
    Stats:

    • Strength: D
    • Constitution: D
    • Stamina: C
    • Speed: D
    • Coordination: D
    • Intelligence: B
    • Perception: D


    Link to Character Updates: Here
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    Link to Known Techniques: See Character Updates.
    Kurenai
    Kurenai
    Genin

    Posts : 119
    Join date : 2018-10-29

    Character File
    Skills & Elements: KKG, Ninjutsu, Sensory -- Fire
    Class: D
    Ryo: -

    Kyujutsu: more love? Empty Re: Kyujutsu: more love?

    Post by Kurenai Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:32 am

    That's the correlation between strength and coordination in regards to bow fired projectiles, the arrow speed/power behind a bow shot is dependent on the bow as well as the user. So if the quality of the bow has no play in regard to how those numbers are brought about then you might well pick up a stick and string and fire away.
    I can't agree with that. It's the arrow that impacts the target, not the bow. Strength and coordination should influence the impact of the arrow the same way someone throws a javelin or uses an axe. The bow is just a medium to that extend.

    I would understand if the rank of the bow determines the max range of the arrow only, but nothing more than that. Adding minimum/maximum stat requirement to its use makes no sense when any other weapon (including ranged such as javelin, shuriken, kusarigama) do not have these.
    Your D-rank shuriken won't break because you're throwing it with A-rank strength. But your D-rank bow would snap if you pulled back with A-rank strength. An A-rank shuriken thrown at D-rank strength won't do much. But don't even try using an A-rank bow with that strength.


    In regards to 'eagle eye' being free, it is free, because you get it as a perk no other skill/user gets upon getting A tier perception with the Kyujutsu skill.
    Retry this with a C-rank perception starting genin and show me where it is 'free' in comparison to a D-rank genin ninjutsu user who gets chakra reduction on their element. Right. You won't have Eagle Eye at all. Why? Because it is not free as you claim. I believe you confuse 'restricted' with 'free of cost'. Yes, it is restricted to kyujutsu specialists. No, it is not free for kyujutsu specialists.

    I do not believe that looking at high-tier shinobi as the standard is a fair judgement of the perk. Or anything else for that matter. If the perk is supposed to be a benefit or bonus for picking the spec, it should be available right off the bat to all who pick up the spec. Not just to a select few who shoehorned their build around it.

    This is why I vouch for a 'Eagle Eye' ability similar to Sensory's jutsu. It makes it available to all practitioners, not just high-end shinobi.


    You pull out an A quality arrow, pull back your A quality bow with your B tier strength, aim with your A tier coordination and fire it, and what do you get?

    An attack that goes 1.5 kilometers away.
    Imagine a target with A-rank perception and B-rank coordination (or vice versa, whichever), using no weapons or armour. What do you get? Someone who will jump 1 meter to the right as they see/hear said arrow come in and you'll miss because you can't manipulate flight trajectory for free. To top it off, they won't have to pay for the weapons or armour. Because if they had that done, their A-rank armour will additionally safe them from a lethal strike. It'd cost no chakra to dodge the arrow either.

    Yes, the range is impressive. The power, however, is just as easily negated as you can fire it.


    _________________


    Kyujutsu: more love? Kopie_10

    Kurenai:

    Strength: D
    Constitution: D
    Stamina: D [50]
    Speed: D
    Coordination: C
    Intelligence: D
    Perception: C



    Speech: cf5555
    Sensei: Azuma Asakaze

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    Mal'Zeth Muramatsu
    Mal'Zeth Muramatsu

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    Kyujutsu: more love? Empty Re: Kyujutsu: more love?

    Post by Mal'Zeth Muramatsu Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:24 am

    I can't agree with that. It's the arrow that impacts the target, not the bow. Strength and coordination should influence the impact of the arrow the same way someone throws a javelin or uses an axe. The bow is just a medium to that extend.

    I would understand if the rank of the bow determines the max range of the arrow only, but nothing more than that. Adding minimum/maximum stat requirement to its use makes no sense when any other weapon (including ranged such as javelin, shuriken, kusarigama) do not have these.

    The bow itself is what determines the force, speed, and range of an arrow. That's why the invention of the longbow was such a devastating thing for armored units, because it could fire from farther away with more force. The arrows hardness/quality is only really determining if it can survive the force of the impact or is destroyed by a jutsu, etc, and of course if it can pierce the target.  In regards to 'nothing else having minimum stat investments' you aren't going to get far without strength enough to lift and swing the weapon, or the coordination to utilize it in time. Not only that, but because of the very powerful ranges involved in a bows use it makes perfect sense to have a minimum stat investment in order to use a bow of a certain rank.


    Your D-rank shuriken won't break because you're throwing it with A-rank strength. But your D-rank bow would snap if you pulled back with A-rank strength. An A-rank shuriken thrown at D-rank strength won't do much. But don't even try using an A-rank bow with that strength.


    I believe you're confused, a D rank bow won't snap if you use A tier strength.

    Allow me to clarify the rule I believe you're misinterpreting.

    Maximum Distances are determined by the Grade of the Bow. Keep in mind these are base values that assume the Draw Power of the Bow is equal to its Grade; Bows can have Draw Power of a lower quality than their Grade, but a Bow can never have a higher quality Draw Power than its Grade without breaking. In order to wield a Bow, the user will need to have Strength at least 1 Tier below the Draw

    The highlighted line in particular is where I believe you got that assumption from, where all it says is that an A grade bow cannot have a draw power of S without breaking when one attempted to pull it. This is to simulate the tension a bowstring puts upon the material of the bow. The draw power, is the tension, you need a certain amount of strength to overcome that tension in order to pull the bowstring back. However, god forbid if the tension is higher than the bows quality, or it'll snap in your hand.

    To the other part, absolutely, don't try to use an A tier bow with D tier strength, a bow that can fire 1.5 kilometers, etc.

    What's the farthest possible one can throw a shuriken? Let's find out.

    Let's just say a shuriken/kunai is moving at X++ speed

    after 20 meters it drops to X then we'll drop it 1 rank per 30 meters
    S = 50m
    A = 80m
    B = 110m
    C = 140m
    D = 170m
    E = 200m

    A rank bow shot = 1500m if you didn't know, and it maintains the same speed/power throughout it's travel the shuriken slows down and therefore loses it's potency as it goes.

    Of course that kind of range/power ratio is going to come with some sort of stat investment. Like having a strength of at least 1 tier lower than the draw power (Which is equal to the quality)

    So that same A tier bow, only needs B tier strength to draw and fire.

    It does however need high coordination to aim such a shot accurately, and perception to track the target.


    In regards to 'eagle eye' being free, it is free, because you get it as a perk no other skill/user gets upon getting A tier perception with the Kyujutsu skill.

    Retry this with a C-rank perception starting genin and show me where it is 'free' in comparison to a D-rank genin ninjutsu user who gets chakra reduction on their element. Right. You won't have Eagle Eye at all. Why? Because it is not free as you claim. I believe you confuse 'restricted' with 'free of cost'. Yes, it is restricted to kyujutsu specialists. No, it is not free for kyujutsu specialists.

    I do not believe that looking at high-tier shinobi as the standard is a fair judgement of the perk. Or anything else for that matter. If the perk is supposed to be a benefit or bonus for picking the spec, it should be available right off the bat to all who pick up the spec. Not just to a select few who shoehorned their build around it.

    This is why I vouch for a 'Eagle Eye' ability similar to Sensory's jutsu. It makes it available to all practitioners, not just high-end shinobi.

    Show me the genin with C tier perception that can fire bows as far as A tier perception would need and I'll show you someone who has no business making their own stat spread.

    To that end however, I believe you confuse 'free' with 'if I don't get it immediately, it isn't really free'.

    Does unlocking it require an investment into a stat that fighting in that method would need to level up anyway? Yes absolutely.

    Does that mean you get to say it's not free? No, because the term free in this case is stating that should you have Kyujutsu, and obtain A tier perception, you get the 'Eagle Eye' perk for free. So if you meet the other prerequisites, you get that additional perk without having to spend anymore exp.

    Your idea? Involves giving a technique similar to the selling point of another skill to Kyujutsu users for free.

    Good luck with that idea.


    Imagine a target with A-rank perception and B-rank coordination (or vice versa, whichever), using no weapons or armour. What do you get? Someone who will jump 1 meter to the right as they see/hear said arrow come in and you'll miss because you can't manipulate flight trajectory for free. To top it off, they won't have to pay for the weapons or armour. Because if they had that done, their A-rank armour will additionally safe them from a lethal strike. It'd cost no chakra to dodge the arrow either.

    Yes, the range is impressive. The power, however, is just as easily negated as you can fire it.

    Imagine trying to use what your target COULD do or have as a balancing point.

    You can't utilize the potential actions/equipment of another target in an argument, only the theoretical potential of the attack itself. NOT, what could stop it.

    What if I'm firing an arrow that cuts through the air without a sound? We're on a magic shinobi roleplay site, and that's a fairly decent idea for an enchant to slap onto an arrow.

    What if I'm firing an arrow that reduces the quality/hardness of equipment as it strikes by a tier? Also, that's still A rank force slamming into someone, that's not going to feel fun.

    If someone sits there and tries to say they knew the arrow was coming without covering their ass backwards and forwards, they'd get called out for metagaming and their post requiring an edit without a second thought.

    Am I saying it's easy to hit someone successfully from that range? No, of course not, I'm saying it's possible to, which is more than anyone else can do without investing at least 30 chakra into the attempt, the equivalent of an S rank jutsu.

    Bottom line? Kyujutsu can successfully attack from stupendous ranges with absolutely no cost.

    Does Eagle Eye need some clarification? Yes absolutely

    Does the entire system need to be reworked? God no, unless one wants to nerf it.


    _________________
    Character Name: Mal'Zeth Muramatsu
    Spendable Experience: 0
    Total Experience: 0
    Renown: 0
    Ryo: 25,000
    Stats:

    • Strength: D
    • Constitution: D
    • Stamina: C
    • Speed: D
    • Coordination: D
    • Intelligence: B
    • Perception: D


    Link to Character Updates: Here
    Link to Character Application: N/A
    Link to Known Techniques: See Character Updates.
    Emiki-Chan
    Emiki-Chan

    Posts : 87
    Join date : 2019-09-03

    Kyujutsu: more love? Empty Re: Kyujutsu: more love?

    Post by Emiki-Chan Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:04 am

    Actually:

    Sight at Ranges C+ Bow are already Made useless do to not having the Eagle Eye Perc at low levels. At least I'm assuming since we're never given visual range.

    D = average human: 25 to 40 meters with a C Rank Bow , 1000m with a machine assisted bow with sights.

    C Perc / Coord can shoot at 283 meters Bow or 680 meters Crossbow

    That as you see is regular human archer shooting. Their sight becomes better and more accurate the more they train it.

    But As is? You're blowing 16 Stats for X Bow. A Rank Min.

    Name one other skill that Stat Locks you into progression?

    None.

    Yes. You need Str, and Coord, but it's implicit rather than explicit.

    As long as you don't have B Str weilding a C weapon, it won't shatter. You have high Coord you can weild more weapons. No doi.

    But you don't see Senbon Launchers, Crossbows, or any non-thrown weapon stat locked.

    And even the ones that "are", aren't with the Jutsu that give them range.
    Mal'Zeth Muramatsu
    Mal'Zeth Muramatsu

    Posts : 89
    Join date : 2020-01-26

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    Post by Mal'Zeth Muramatsu Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:30 am

    Actually:

    Sight at Ranges C+ Bow are already Made useless do to not having the Eagle Eye Perc at low levels. At least I'm assuming since we're never given visual range.

    D = average human: 25 to 40 meters with a C Rank Bow , 1000m with a machine assisted bow with sights.

    C Perc / Coord can shoot at 283 meters Bow or 680 meters  Crossbow

    That as you see is regular human archer shooting. Their sight becomes better and more accurate the more they train it.

    See these rules

    In order to accurately hit a a target at the bow's maximum range, you will need Coordination equal to the Draw Power, so to hit a 2.5km target accurately, you'll need S-Tier Coordination and a bow with S-Grade Draw Power. One Tier lower Coordination can accurately hit a target at 1/2 the maximum range or within a 50m vicinity of the target at full range, while Two Tiers lower can accurately hit a target at 1/4 the range, hit within 50m of the target at 1/2 the range, or hit within 100m at full range. These inaccurate ranges do not completely stop you from hitting your target; you can still use volley attacks and in the case that your target is much larger than normal, like a Bijuu or similarly sized summon, you will be much more likely to hit somewhere on your target, though perhaps not where you were aiming.

    Trying to argue what a normal human could/could not in regards to the stats we're debating doesn't work when the rules for the projectile based weapon in question clarify quite nicely how accurate you are and it's based off coordination. D tier perception can see at 150m, C tier could see at 400, etc, etc. The videos you linked argued about how accurately one could fire, but it was not any kind of evidence of how well one could see the target, which is what perception is and what the point was about.

    But As is? You're blowing 16 Stats for X Bow. A Rank Min.

    Name one other skill that Stat Locks you into progression?

    None.
    Besides pretty much every crafting discipline except for parts of chemistry, and Taijutsu which you can't do anything unless you have the stat necessary because all it does is boosts specific movements. That's pretty explicit since if I have D tier strength as a Tai user (Barring Hyuuga) I'm probably fuck all useless. There's also defending and utilizing genjutsu effectively, unsealing fuin, all of which are pretty stat locky when it comes to progressing what one can and cannot do with such attempts. Hell, Taijutsu can just as easily injure you if you don't bring up your constitution to handle the force of your own blows.



    Yes. You need Str, and Coord, but it's implicit rather than  explicit.

    As long as you don't have B Str weilding a C weapon, it won't shatter. You have high Coord you can weild more weapons. No doi.

    But you don't see Senbon Launchers, Crossbows, or any non-thrown weapon stat locked.

    And even the ones that "are", aren't with the Jutsu that give them range.

    Every example you gave is an example of a completely mechanical apparatus that fires a projectile at the pull of a 'trigger' (Or a ripcord or something for senbon launchers, etc) That wouldn't work the same way as a bow at all, not even remotely. Hell crossbows generally even have tools to help one pull the string back so it can be fired again.

    A bow is a 'simple tool' by human standards (not necessarily site ones mind you) in that it is essentially a stick, bent and held taut with string. Then the user (you for example) Have to physically pull back the bow string while you aim, and release, and that's with just instinct fire. A lot have to pull back the bow string, and THEN aim, so they have to hold it full tilt while they line up the shot.

    That takes a lot of strength, almost like it'd depend on the draw weight of the bow itself.

    It's a human motion, assisted with simple physics.

    Meanwhile mechanical apparatuses are simply 'load aim fire' and everything about them is predetermined a senbon launcher utilizes it's spring loaded mechanism for the speed (C tier at base in case you were not aware)


    _________________
    Character Name: Mal'Zeth Muramatsu
    Spendable Experience: 0
    Total Experience: 0
    Renown: 0
    Ryo: 25,000
    Stats:

    • Strength: D
    • Constitution: D
    • Stamina: C
    • Speed: D
    • Coordination: D
    • Intelligence: B
    • Perception: D


    Link to Character Updates: Here
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    Emiki-Chan
    Emiki-Chan

    Posts : 87
    Join date : 2019-09-03

    Kyujutsu: more love? Empty Re: Kyujutsu: more love?

    Post by Emiki-Chan Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:08 am

    Nope. Nothing.

    And actually Average Human with stats. Is actually pretty fair. Seeing as how D is Average Human, and C is Peak Human.

    C+ and higher is where you start getting beyond human in stats.

    And I didn't link videos. I linked the Guiness Book of Records.

    If C is said in Site Canon, to be what Peek Humans are capable of. Then technically the site is nerfing what C can do to make it fair for mechanics.
    ==============


    I'm not talking about Skills. I'm talking about Weapons.

    Although I wouldn't call Skills Stat Locky.

    Yes, Crafting is Coord Based (Congrats, 1 Stat), Chemistry/Genjutsu/Fuuin/Ijutsu is Int Based (Still one stat). Summoning is Stam reliant (Again 1 Stat).

    But I said name weapons.

    I think there is the Executioner Sword which needs C Str, but past that. There are no Stat Locks outside of Bows..

    =============

    Then you get to the crux of the matter. We don't get sight ranges; yes, you can accurately fire, but you can't hit what you can't see. If you're perc is crap your aim is off. Since you're unable to fully see / aim at the target.

    Then there's Eagle Eye; The Free Perc for Kyo. Requires 1,650 XP to unlock, making it so that those Bow Ranges are useless. Not unless you put 1,650 into Perc. (That's 4 Stat Raises to use the Bow's Ranges accurately).

    Then to use an S Bow you need A Str and S Coord. So that brings it up to 14 Stat Raises.

    What about X Rank Bow? That's S Str and X Coord (S Cood Base). So that's 16 Stat Raises.


    So .. 16 vs. 4 to 6 Stat Raises for the other skills?

    As for Tai? Really? You can't say that when:

    If you're wearing armor your attacks use the armor as a full body weapon (So you can skimp on Str and Con if you really want to. Aka the Fragile Speedster.);

    You can have a Fighter / Brawler with shit Coord and Speed, but hit like a meteor strike. (So Skimp on Spd and Coord ,but have FU Str and Con. Aka the Glacier).

    Read this Link on Competitive Ballance.

    But the point will always stand.

    You have 7 Stats, 17 - 23 Stat Raises on average

    Kyojutsu is the only one that ruins Competitive Balance Builds by taking away ingenius loopholes, Clan-Stat Builds, and carbon copies each one into a pigeon hole.

    You want Bows? You need 2 Stats (rather than just 1) to fire it.

    You want to actually be able to fire it accurately at Range? A Range far further than anything else? You better toss in an A Rank into Perc.

    What's that you only have 1- 7 Stat Raises left? Welll, Oopsy Doopsy. Sucks to be you. You probably should have taken literally any other skill.

    ===========


    Which lets be honest. Drop the A Rank Lock to get Eagle Eye. Only 2 Stats needed; Sucks but not completely unfair.

    It's the same 2 Stats needed to use Projectiles anyways. Dropping 12 Stat Raises may suck. But that's still 5 - 11 Stat Raises Left. Plenty to make a totally custom build, and be useful on Site.

    As is. It destroys any notion of Competitive Ballance, and Build Strategy.
    Kurenai
    Kurenai
    Genin

    Posts : 119
    Join date : 2018-10-29

    Character File
    Skills & Elements: KKG, Ninjutsu, Sensory -- Fire
    Class: D
    Ryo: -

    Kyujutsu: more love? Empty Re: Kyujutsu: more love?

    Post by Kurenai Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:10 pm

    I feel like this is becoming a discussion about who is right rather than a discussion of how kyujutsu applies systematically on site and how it can become more appealing as a spec in general. There were plenty of people in chat who agreed or believed kyujutsu could use some affection - they didn't ask to make it the next best thing.

    So here goes.

    Take three shinobi. A, B and C. Each is given C-rank stats across the board, making them above average genin. A uses bukijutsu. B uses ninjutsu. C uses kyujutsu. They each have the respective spec. Doing this because people like way too much to look at high-rank shinobi when low-rank shinobi have their plays just as much. Questions, answered in turn by A, B and C.




    Knowing I can afford the most expected weapon for my spec at its highest rank (S-rank), can I actually use it?
    A: Yes, my strength doesn't matter when it comes to the quality of my weapons. I'd be able to make use of it against those of equal ability.
    B: Yes?
    C: No, I do not have A-rank strength to use the bow. That's the bare minimum of stats I'd need.
    Should I be given that, I'd need A-rank coordination to actually hit my target at maximum distance, which is important if I intend to use the actually suggested/offered advantage of kyujutsu. Not that this is a mandatory thing to do, but not using would be silly. Oh, and A-rank perception or I'd have no clue what I'm targeting at that distance...


    Will I be able to damage anything with said S-rank weapon?
    A: Yes, though the impact might not be extraordinary due to my strength being on the lower spectrum.
    B: Same.
    C: ... I can't use my bow.  


    In actual combat against each other, given fitting weapons, will you be capable of dealing with your opponents efficiently.
    A: Bukijutsu is versatile. If they stay at range, I can use shuriken or boost speed to get closer. Practically any form of combat is possible if I have the right weapon but I don't need more than one weapon to be useful.
    B: BWAHAHA, weapons! I mean, yes.
    C: A B-rank bow. I could 'snipe' them but considering equality of stats, they can dodge what I fire. B-rank projectile speed is not impossible for them to deal with. What they can't dodge, they can block. What I use on chakra, they can rival.
    The range doesn't matter on a systematic level, since the interaction is a matter of stats. And if they get close enough, I have precious little defences left but evading and trying to get a shot in.


    What is the actual ryo cost for your fighting style.
    A: One weapon makes me viable.
    B: BWAHAHA, weap- I mean, none. I'll buy a kunai, because I'm smart.
    C: Two pieces - the bow and the (finite) arrows. Thus at least twice the cost in comparison to others.


    Can I use my granted perk at the level I am now?
    A: Yes. Any bukijutsu skill gains reduction. Neither stats nor jutsu rank matter for this.
    B: Same, as long as the technique uses my element.
    C: No. I do not have A-rank perception. I am effectively acting without access to my perk.


    What will it cost me in total to be able to use my perk?
    A: One Skill Point
    B: One Skill Point
    C: One skill Point and 1650 XP to reach A-rank perception. Which, given gradual/natural growth might force me to be B-rank at earliest unless I want to be a highly perceptive person only. But having the eyes doesn't mean I have the bow to match it at that point. So... Yay, theoretical vs actual costs?




    The point is, kyujutsu is a shoehorned spec. You either go all-in sniper or you don't take the spec. There is no in between that will make it viable. Getting three stats to A-rank just to use an S-rank bow and get all the kyujutsu gimmicks is already tailoring your build in a very specific direction. I believe there is no need to discuss X-rank bow requirements knowing this, since that's just one two steps worse.

    There is no room to take kyujutsu as a aesthetic/flair or supportive spec. No close quarter 'Legolas' fighting style that doesn't rely on long distances but on mobile point blank piercing power. Why? Because if you take the high rank bows for the projectile speed, you lose the use of its range (which is kyujutsu's sell card); adding strength or coordination will not change that for kyujutsu. If you take the mid-rank bows to disregard its range, you lose on projectile speed because here again neither strength nor coordination will improve that. And let us certainly not forget: it is not the bow that is used to calculate damage, it is the arrow.

    No one is interested in a spec that expects this sort of investment and rigidity when there are bountiful other specs which allow more creativity and versatility in fighting styles. They'll gladly sacrifice the insane range for it. This is why I hope to change a few things about the spec: offer suggestions to make it viable at every rank and make it flexible with other specs.


    _________________


    Kyujutsu: more love? Kopie_10

    Kurenai:

    Strength: D
    Constitution: D
    Stamina: D [50]
    Speed: D
    Coordination: C
    Intelligence: D
    Perception: C



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    Kitsuki Kurahasa
    Kitsuki Kurahasa
    Genin

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    Kyujutsu: more love? Empty Re: Kyujutsu: more love?

    Post by Kitsuki Kurahasa Tue Mar 10, 2020 2:54 pm

    - Discard arrow speed being equal to bow rank and make both arrow speed and penetration power (aka damage) dependent on strength like other weapons/projectiles. With the quality of the bow determining max range. This implementation would make kyujutsu closer to its sibling weapon-specs in rules and stat reliance, and offer more versatility in stat builds or spec supplementing.

    *^ As anyone on staff will tell you, I'm not a big fan of the projectile rules. I think its a bit complicated and restrictive but doesn't really add too much to the site. Ironically, once when I made a ruling on the basis of the projectile rules the people who championed it were angry with me. So I'd be in favor of making Kyujutsu just like all the other physical styles with quality determining max range.


    - Remove stats restrictions so bow use falls in line with other weapons. This grants the shinobi more freedom in when they buy a new bow and allows for mire build versatility.

    *^ I agree for the most part albeit with common-sense caveats. A bow with crazy high draw tension would require high Strength just the same as a buster sword would. I don't think hard restrictions are necessary but depending on how people app custom bows (or any weapon) I might require a stat check.

    - Clarify Eagle Eye's effective ability in full. What can and can't it do exactly, other than 'looking far into the distance'.

    *^ I also agree with this. If someone wants to do that it'd be appreciated.

    - Make 'Eagle Eye' a free perk. No minimum rank but a direct benefit: a scaling (do)jutsu the way Sensory is given its ability for free. The cost can be free or set at a low minimum, the actual perception range dependent on the user's natural perception. I believe this makes the perk useful for every archer, not just high-ranked/end-tier users.

    *^ I don't necessarily feel like this needs to be a thing. I think it should require a high stat investment but I guess that depends on what the clarified and registered Eagle Eye perk looks like. If its REALLY good then it absolutely should require a stat investment, if its relatively meh or weaker than what its in the Skill then perhaps it shouldn't require the investment.

    - Set kyujutsu apart from weapon specialisations by making it a 'hybrid' specialisation. A natural mix between weapon and ninjutsu. This will make it less dependent on additional SP expenditure while offering more versatility in builds.

    *^ Interesting idea. Tbh, I'd probably scrap Kyujutsu and Kenjutsu and just throw it all under Buki BUT I think we already have a problem with Skill Points not being used as much and I fear that would only exacerbate concerns so I'd be against this.


    _________________
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    Stats:
    Strength: S
    Constitution: S
    Stamina: A
    Speed: C
    Coordination: C
    Intelligence: D
    Perception: A


    Gear
    Quantum Meruit Armour [50/43]
    Amicus Curiae [20/20 Explosions] {Contained in Temporal Stasis via Angelic Return}
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    Kurenai
    Kurenai
    Genin

    Posts : 119
    Join date : 2018-10-29

    Character File
    Skills & Elements: KKG, Ninjutsu, Sensory -- Fire
    Class: D
    Ryo: -

    Kyujutsu: more love? Empty Re: Kyujutsu: more love?

    Post by Kurenai Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:14 pm


    - Set kyujutsu apart from weapon specialisations by making it a 'hybrid' specialisation. A natural mix between weapon and ninjutsu. This will make it less dependent on additional SP expenditure while offering more versatility in builds.

    *^ Interesting idea. Tbh, I'd probably scrap Kyujutsu and Kenjutsu and just throw it all under Buki BUT I think we already have a problem with Skill Points not being used as much and I fear that would only exacerbate concerns so I'd be against this.
    I could add a suggestion for that, too. If you do intend to throw them all under one spec (bukijutsu), then perhaps the idea of a sub-specs might appeal to you. By adding sub-specs, after purchasing the Bukijutsu spec, you'd allow someone to spend an SP point into a particular weapon group (example: kenjutsu or blades) to grant that buki-user an additional bonus when using kenjutsu/blades. It would not deny them the use of other weapons; rather allow them to strengthen their skill in a smaller group by offering a bonus for that weapon group only.

    That said, it is an entirely different debate. If kyujutsu is to remain, I'd prefer to suggest the 'hybrid' thought.


    _________________


    Kyujutsu: more love? Kopie_10

    Kurenai:

    Strength: D
    Constitution: D
    Stamina: D [50]
    Speed: D
    Coordination: C
    Intelligence: D
    Perception: C



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    Sensei: Azuma Asakaze

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    Tang Hao
    Tang Hao

    Posts : 38
    Join date : 2017-09-19

    Kyujutsu: more love? Empty Re: Kyujutsu: more love?

    Post by Tang Hao Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:54 pm

    @Kitsuki Kurahasa wrote:- Discard arrow speed being equal to bow rank and make both arrow speed and penetration power (aka damage) dependent on strength like other weapons/projectiles. With the quality of the bow determining max range. This implementation would make kyujutsu closer to its sibling weapon-specs in rules and stat reliance, and offer more versatility in stat builds or spec supplementing.

    Just gonna say that this would technically be nerfing the spec more for end game, as the current systems allow for you to utilize X rank bows while having A rank strength if you utilize the proper boosting techniques. So instead of being able to fire off X rank speed/power arrows at end game, you are going to get stuck with S rank maximums unless you decide to invest in natural S rank strength, which I doubt a bow user would want to do.

    Unfortunately with the way kyujutsu works, just dabbling in it is going to be crappy regardless of how you change it. It's extremely powerful when fully invested into, and doing so wont really cripple you in terms of arsenal variety. Now nobody is going to be hitting people from 5km realistically unless they have some sort of insanely weird stat build, but under the current systems if you set up a proper build, and through utilizing proper enhanced states, or entity limiteds, one would be able to hit S++ in any of the related stats for kyujutsu, which would allow for very powerful sniping from around 4km away. Those boosted stats dont even take into account bow styles or technique specific stat buffs, nor does it include the fact that you can just make aoe damaging arrows with whatever element you have. Hell you could enchant a bow to add very powerful enhancements to arrows, like the shuriken shadow clone or having an arrow utilize a kkg technique.

    From what I can tell, a lot of these suggestions would just make things slightly easier for people who take the spec early, but remove a lot of capability for the spec at a completed build. I believe there are a few builds that can be good during both early game and end game but people just need to put in the time to theorycraft them.

    Also anyone who doesnt grab A rank perception on every character needs to reread the stat rules lol.


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    Kyujutsu: more love? CsLIWnM



    Kurenai
    Kurenai
    Genin

    Posts : 119
    Join date : 2018-10-29

    Character File
    Skills & Elements: KKG, Ninjutsu, Sensory -- Fire
    Class: D
    Ryo: -

    Kyujutsu: more love? Empty Re: Kyujutsu: more love?

    Post by Kurenai Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:44 am


    Just gonna say that this would technically be nerfing the spec more for end game, as the current systems allow for you to utilize X rank bows while having A rank strength if you utilize the proper boosting techniques. So instead of being able to fire off X rank speed/power arrows at end game, you are going to get stuck with S rank maximums unless you decide to invest in natural S rank strength, which I doubt a bow user would want to do.
    Frankly speaking, that S-rank strength investment would still beat what any other spec gets.

    - A-rank strength gives you S-rank arrow speed (the bow's 'weapon speed' if you will) or X-rank if you boost it (at C-rank cost at worst) like you stated. Any other weapon needs S-rank coordination to rival your natural arrow speed and X-rank to rival your boosted speed.
    - An archer with S-rank strength isn't someone you'd like to go toe to toe with in close quarters. And considering their current 'mandatory spec build', Taijutsu spec or not, if they hit you it will hurt. That one S-rank strength investment alone gives a lot more to archers than to anyone else.
    - Any other X-rank weapon grants you nothing but rank/quality. Damage is still heavily limited by your strength. Having an  X-rank sword does little if your strength's only B-rank, and the weapon gives you no free 'X-rank speed'. Not to mention any kyujutsu technique can put that X-rank weapon speed to good use by stating the jutsu's speed is 'as projectile' - that's some crazy free scaling for its lower rank jutsu other specs don't get.

    While it isn't my intention to nerf kyujutsu, perhaps an end game nerf isn't all that bad. I'm trying to have the spec be used across a shinobi's entire carreer (not only end-game) and offer more versatility than the singular build of a sniper or weapon master. If anything, end-game confrontations should be about good gameplay rather than extra natural power.






    Adding an attempt to write out the 'Eagle Eye' Perk.

    Kyujutsu Hiden, Eagle Eye Sight:

    Name: Kyujutsu Hiden, Eagle Eye Sight
    Rank: A-rank
    Activation Cost: -
    Upkeep Cost: 1
    Range: Varies by Perception
    Speed: -
    Element: -
    Classification: SP Perk
    Requirements: Kyujutsu
    Handseals: -
    Description:
    Known also as the 'Sniper's Eye', this technique is taught to all those walking the Path of the Bow. When using this technique, the archer sharpens their eyesight when looking into the distance, allowing them to pick up visual details with exceptional accuracy at incredible distances. This visual accuracy allows them to spot and track distant targets with greater ease than most and offers thus the ability to calculate the intended trajectory of their arrows with impressive precision.

    The maximum range of the Eagle Eye falls in line with bow projectile distances and depends on the perception stat of the archer.

    • E-Tier: 50 meter
    • D-Tier: 150 meter
    • C-Tier: 400 meter
    • B-Tier: 750 meter
    • A-Tier: 1'500 meter
    • S-Tier: 2'500 meter
    • X-Tier: 5'000 meter


    Drawbacks: As this is not a Sensory technique or Dojutsu, the Eagle Eye is rather simplistic in its capabilities. It is unable to pierce through any sort of obstacles, suffers greatly against fog-like effects and can't pick up chakra signatures. In effect, 'what you see is what you get'.

    ... I think bow projectile range needs some lowering o.o;


    _________________


    Kyujutsu: more love? Kopie_10

    Kurenai:

    Strength: D
    Constitution: D
    Stamina: D [50]
    Speed: D
    Coordination: C
    Intelligence: D
    Perception: C



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      Current date/time is Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:04 pm